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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10 Jul 2011, 06:18 pm
/g
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Default 98 civic no start after timing belt change

Hi folks. I have a 1998 Civic LX. Just under 160K miles. Ran when I
bought it.

Some background. I am not a novice home mechanic. Been wrenching my own
stuff for at least 40 years.
I have done a number of timing belts on older non interference volvo 740s,
never a problem, other than the
time I forgot to tighten the camshaft gear bolt.....8*))).

I decided to change the timing belt on the civic. Found and used a step by
step set of directions from one of
the civic forums on line. Pulled it all apart, changed the belt and water
pump and tension pully. I used a
mirror to align the two side marks on the camshaft gear with the head to
block surface. I aligned the crank
pully with the mark by the oil pump. I set the engine to TDC before
starting (at least I think I did, never
checked it against the distributor rotor), and made sure that I didn't move
the crank or the camshaft much
more than I needed to during disassembly, and always restored it to
premovement position.

I set the tension according to directions, and afterwards, it felt like it
was at the correct tightness.

I did unbolt the crank position sensor and let it hang, but I don't think I
disconnected it. Not sure at this
point. The clearance from the sensor to the crank was a bit more than my
thickest feeler guage, I think
..040" plus. I tried to set it back to this clearance during reassembly.

The car cranks over but never attempts to fire. I did check for spark, and
had a strong spark, but now
don't have spark. I believe I have fuel. I hear the fuel pump cycle when
the key is turned on, and the plugs
are wet and I smell fuel.

Compression is fairly even, something like 115 to 125 across the four
cylinders.

The car hadn't seen a tuneup in some time. Plugs were almost worn out, air
filter dirty, and when I pulled the
distributor cap, the rotor contact that sends the spark to each wire during
rotation is pretty nasty, along with the
plug wire contacts inside the cap. I scraped them all as clean as I could,
still no start.

All fuses in the fuse box are good.

I'm suspecting that maybe I have the belt 180 degrees out. Or, the crank
position sensor is bad, or maybe I broke
a wire to it during the work.

Another factor, although slim, is that I took between 1 and 2 months to do
this. I work a lot, and worked on this
nights and weekends when I could. So, the car sat, but that shouldn't have
caused any problems. The battery
was disconnected during this whole time. I also put a charger on it, just
in case it was giving the ignition system
a low voltage. I have seen no starts when a battery was weak.

I will be pulling the timing covers to recheck things, or at least the top
cover. Then I'll set the crank at the single
mark, verify that the distributor is at #1, and check the camshaft position.

Have I missed anything? This is my first honda, don't usually mess with
these things. From the directions I used
it's all basics, nothing magic. Either I broke something or didn't set
things correctly.... or some random part
broke on coincidence.

Oh yeah, when I first put the belt on, I rotated the engine by hand 6
revolutions, and encountered no interference,
and all the timing marks came up to the correct position. Also, before I
tried to really start it, I pulled all the plug
wires off and cranked the engine over for several revolutions thinking that
if there were a valve strike, that maybe
the starter wouldn't be strong enough to bend it versus the engine running
definately would.......

Sorry for the length, wanted to give all details......

Any thoughts?

thanks, /glenn


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 10 Jul 2011, 07:13 pm
Tegger
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 98 civic no start after timing belt change

"/g" <me@you.com> wrote in
news:_qqSp.228$GY.192@newsreading01.news.tds.net:

> Also,
> before I tried to really start it, I pulled all the plug
> wires off and cranked the engine over for several revolutions




You may have killed the coil with that action.

From your description of the car's neglected history, the coil has already
had a hard life, and you may have pushed it over the edge.

Do you have a tachometer on the dash? If so, does the needle jiggle just
the tiniest amount when you crank, or is it dead-still?



--
Tegger
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 10 Jul 2011, 09:07 pm
/g
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 98 civic no start after timing belt change


"Tegger" <invalid@example.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9F1ECDC26E4B4tegger@208.90.168.18...
> "/g" <me@you.com> wrote in
> news:_qqSp.228$GY.192@newsreading01.news.tds.net:
>
>> Also,
>> before I tried to really start it, I pulled all the plug
>> wires off and cranked the engine over for several revolutions

>
>
>
> You may have killed the coil with that action.
>
> From your description of the car's neglected history, the coil has already
> had a hard life, and you may have pushed it over the edge.
>
> Do you have a tachometer on the dash? If so, does the needle jiggle just
> the tiniest amount when you crank, or is it dead-still?
>
>
>
> --
> Tegger


Yup, it has a tach. I just tried it and no movement at all.....

So, where is the coil in this thing? Buried inside the distributor cap
perhaps?
Being that there isn't a coil wire, that's the way it looks.

One thing I don't understand is that I had spark. I pulled the wire
furthest away
from the distributor, put the plug into the wire and put it on the valve
cover under the
throttle cable (to hold it tight to the cover) and got a bright spark. But,
later on, the same
test showed no spark.

My plan is to replace the distributor cap and rotor, they are currently
junk. I suppose
I should also get a coil while I'm at it, yes?

So, if it still doesn't start, any other thoughts?

Another question. If the crank position sensor was bad, I never would
have gotten
spark the one time it sparked, correct? Or, is the sensor telling the ECU
something
else?

thanks for the help. It may be a day or two before I get to the parts
store.....

thanks, /glenn


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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 11 Jul 2011, 03:51 pm
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 98 civic no start after timing belt change

"/g" <me@you.com> wrote in
news:ZVsSp.229$GY.58@newsreading01.news.tds.net:


>
> Yup, it has a tach. I just tried it and no movement at all.....





That would be more the igniter, then.

Does the Check Engine light remain on while you crank? Or does it go off
two seconds after the key is turned to "II"?



>
> So, where is the coil in this thing? Buried inside the
> distributor cap perhaps? Being that there isn't a coil wire,
> that's the way it looks.
>
> One thing I don't understand is that I had spark. I pulled the
> wire furthest away from the distributor, put the plug into the
> wire and put it on the valve cover under the throttle cable (to
> hold it tight to the cover) and got a bright spark.
> But, later on, the same test showed no spark.
>
> My plan is to replace the distributor cap and rotor, they are
> currently junk. I suppose I should also get a coil while I'm at
> it, yes?
>
> So, if it still doesn't start, any other thoughts?
>
> Another question. If the crank position sensor was bad, I never
> would have gotten spark the one time it sparked, correct? Or, is
> the sensor telling the ECU something else?




Is the Check Engine light ON while you crank? (after the initial key-on 2
seconds, that is).



>
> thanks for the help. It may be a day or two before I get to the
> parts store.....
>




Good. Take the time to troubleshoot this properly before you blow cash on
unneeed parts.


--
Tegger
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 11 Jul 2011, 07:13 pm
/g
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 98 civic no start after timing belt change


"Tegger" <invalid@example.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9F1FAB63F7F20tegger@208.90.168.18...
> "/g" <me@you.com> wrote in
> news:ZVsSp.229$GY.58@newsreading01.news.tds.net:
>
>
>>
>> Yup, it has a tach. I just tried it and no movement at all.....

>
>
>
>
> That would be more the igniter, then.
>
> Does the Check Engine light remain on while you crank? Or does it go off
> two seconds after the key is turned to "II"?
>
>
>
>>
>> So, where is the coil in this thing? Buried inside the
>> distributor cap perhaps? Being that there isn't a coil wire,
>> that's the way it looks.
>>
>> One thing I don't understand is that I had spark. I pulled the
>> wire furthest away from the distributor, put the plug into the
>> wire and put it on the valve cover under the throttle cable (to
>> hold it tight to the cover) and got a bright spark.
>> But, later on, the same test showed no spark.
>>
>> My plan is to replace the distributor cap and rotor, they are
>> currently junk. I suppose I should also get a coil while I'm at
>> it, yes?
>>
>> So, if it still doesn't start, any other thoughts?
>>
>> Another question. If the crank position sensor was bad, I never
>> would have gotten spark the one time it sparked, correct? Or, is
>> the sensor telling the ECU something else?

>
>
>
> Is the Check Engine light ON while you crank? (after the initial key-on 2
> seconds, that is).
>
>
>
>>
>> thanks for the help. It may be a day or two before I get to the
>> parts store.....
>>

>
>
>
> Good. Take the time to troubleshoot this properly before you blow cash on
> unneeed parts.
>
>
> --
> Tegger

Hi Tegger, check engine light comes on at key position II, and then goes
off
within the 2 seconds you described. It does NOT come on during engine
cranking.

Igniter, ugh. Last time I was involved with one of those, it was mondo
expensive just for the part. Is there some sort of test procedure for that
part?

Is it worth the $$ for the Haynes book on this car? I pretty much avoid
chiltons
due to them being mostly useless in my experience, but have had good luck
with
the Haynes books on just about any vehicle that I've worked on.

Until I find a way to check things, I think for now, I'll pull the top
timing cover
and verify the crank/cam timing in relation to the distributor.

As far as I remember, TDC is TDC every time the #1 piston is at the top
of its
travel, until the camshaft is involved. Then, when the camshaft is
involved, one time
at TDC is the fire position and the next is the exhaust position.

So, providing that I put the crank at the right mark, (TDC mark at the
arrow near
the oil pump), and put the camshaft at the right mark (the 2 notches even
with the head/
block surface) and the UP arrow up, that should put the distributor rotor at
the #1
plug wire. Right? In other words, is it possible to get the system 180
out?

Thanks for all the help, /glenn


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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 11 Jul 2011, 07:30 pm
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 98 civic no start after timing belt change

"/g" <me@you.com> wrote in
news:6lMSp.230$GY.64@newsreading01.news.tds.net:


> Hi Tegger, check engine light comes on at key position II, and
> then goes
> off
> within the 2 seconds you described. It does NOT come on during engine
> cranking.




Good...


>
> Igniter, ugh. Last time I was involved with one of those, it was
> mondo
> expensive just for the part.





Very cheap if you just pull one off a wrecked Honda.




> Is there some sort of test procedure for
> that part?





There is indeed.
<http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#startrun>



>
> Is it worth the $$ for the Haynes book on this car? I pretty much
> avoid
> chiltons
> due to them being mostly useless in my experience, but have had good
> luck with
> the Haynes books on just about any vehicle that I've worked on.




Do not trust either of those for anything.

Get the straight goods from Honda itself:
https://techinfo.honda.com
This is the same information the dealer gets. $10 buys you 3 days of
all-you-can-download.



>
> Until I find a way to check things, I think for now, I'll pull the
> top
> timing cover
> and verify the crank/cam timing in relation to the distributor.
>
> As far as I remember, TDC is TDC every time the #1 piston is at
> the top
> of its
> travel, until the camshaft is involved. Then, when the camshaft is
> involved, one time
> at TDC is the fire position and the next is the exhaust position.
>
> So, providing that I put the crank at the right mark, (TDC mark at
> the
> arrow near
> the oil pump),




And you're aware the TDC mark is the one all by itself on the pulley?



> and put the camshaft at the right mark (the 2 notches
> even with the head/
> block surface) and the UP arrow up, that should put the distributor
> rotor at the #1
> plug wire. Right? In other words, is it possible to get the system
> 180 out?




Yes, it's possible.

With the #1 cylinder (the one next to the timing belt) at TDC
compression, the distributor rotor should point at the #1 position on
the distributor cap.


--
Tegger
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 11 Jul 2011, 07:41 pm
Tegger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 98 civic no start after timing belt change

Tegger <invalid@example.com> wrote in news:Xns9F1FD094A8E3Ategger@
208.90.168.18:


>
> With the #1 cylinder (the one next to the timing belt) at TDC
> compression,




By the way, TDC compression will have all valves CLOSED for the #1
cylinder. The rockers should be OFF the cam lobes.


--
Tegger
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 11 Jul 2011, 07:59 pm
/g
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 98 civic no start after timing belt change


"Tegger" <invalid@example.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9F1FD094A8E3Ategger@208.90.168.18...
> "/g" <me@you.com> wrote in
> news:6lMSp.230$GY.64@newsreading01.news.tds.net:
>
>
>> Hi Tegger, check engine light comes on at key position II, and
>> then goes
>> off
>> within the 2 seconds you described. It does NOT come on during engine
>> cranking.

>
>
>
> Good...
>
>
>>
>> Igniter, ugh. Last time I was involved with one of those, it was
>> mondo
>> expensive just for the part.

>
>
>
>
> Very cheap if you just pull one off a wrecked Honda.


Understood. I'll have to make time for this once I've tested the unit.



>
>
>
>
>> Is there some sort of test procedure for
>> that part?

>
>
>
>
> There is indeed.
> <http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#startrun>
>
>
>
>>
>> Is it worth the $$ for the Haynes book on this car? I pretty much
>> avoid
>> chiltons
>> due to them being mostly useless in my experience, but have had good
>> luck with
>> the Haynes books on just about any vehicle that I've worked on.

>
>
>
> Do not trust either of those for anything.
>
> Get the straight goods from Honda itself:
> https://techinfo.honda.com
> This is the same information the dealer gets. $10 buys you 3 days of
> all-you-can-download.
>
>
>
>>
>> Until I find a way to check things, I think for now, I'll pull the
>> top
>> timing cover
>> and verify the crank/cam timing in relation to the distributor.
>>
>> As far as I remember, TDC is TDC every time the #1 piston is at
>> the top
>> of its
>> travel, until the camshaft is involved. Then, when the camshaft is
>> involved, one time
>> at TDC is the fire position and the next is the exhaust position.
>>
>> So, providing that I put the crank at the right mark, (TDC mark at
>> the
>> arrow near
>> the oil pump),

>
>
>
> And you're aware the TDC mark is the one all by itself on the pulley?


Yes I am, thanks.
>
>
>
>> and put the camshaft at the right mark (the 2 notches
>> even with the head/
>> block surface) and the UP arrow up, that should put the distributor
>> rotor at the #1
>> plug wire. Right? In other words, is it possible to get the system
>> 180 out?

>
>
>
> Yes, it's possible.
>
> With the #1 cylinder (the one next to the timing belt) at TDC
> compression, the distributor rotor should point at the #1 position on
> the distributor cap.
>
>
> --
> Tegger



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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 11 Jul 2011, 08:04 pm
/g
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 98 civic no start after timing belt change


"Tegger" <invalid@example.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9F1FD28EEF7EDtegger@208.90.168.18...
> Tegger <invalid@example.com> wrote in news:Xns9F1FD094A8E3Ategger@
> 208.90.168.18:
>
>
>>
>> With the #1 cylinder (the one next to the timing belt) at TDC
>> compression,

>
>
>
> By the way, TDC compression will have all valves CLOSED for the #1
> cylinder. The rockers should be OFF the cam lobes.
>
>
> --
> Tegger


Yup, knew that, but forgot about it. I'll pull the valve cover during
the checks
to make sure. When I pulled the timing cover, I just loosened and lifted
the valve
cover just enough to get the timing cover off. My very first vehicle was a
59 VW,
and it was vitally important to adjust the valves on them, so I spent a lot
of time
looking at valve trains. 8*)))) Couldn't see the camshaft, but used other
methods
to ensure the valves were fully closed for the feeler guage check.....


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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 18 Jul 2011, 03:17 am
/g
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: 98 civic no start after timing belt change


"Tegger" <invalid@example.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9F1ECDC26E4B4tegger@208.90.168.18...
> "/g" <me@you.com> wrote in
> news:_qqSp.228$GY.192@newsreading01.news.tds.net:
>
>> Also,
>> before I tried to really start it, I pulled all the plug
>> wires off and cranked the engine over for several revolutions

>
>
>
> You may have killed the coil with that action.
>
>

snip
>
>
> --
> Tegger


It lives !!!!!!! Good call. Yup, the coil.

I followed the on car test for the igniter in your .pdf, and according to
that, the igniter
was bad. Following a hunch, I pulled the coil and found the telltale arcing
signs on it.
The infamous figure '8' and the rainbow streaking. So, went to the parts
store and
bought a coil, cap and rotor, and once it was back together, it fired right
up.

So, either I misread the .pdf, or it's not quite right..... ??

Thanks for all the help. /glenn


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