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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 24 Jun 2006, 09:56 pm
Gosi
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Default Re: efficient hybrid

hybrid model MPG City MPG Highway
Honda Insight 60 66
Toyota Prius 60 51

Honda Civic Hybrid 49 51

Ford Escape Hybrid 36 31
Lexus RX Hybrid 33 28
Mercury Mariner Hybrid 33 29
Toyota Highlander Hybrid 33 28
Honda Accord Hybrid 30 37

Chevrolet Silverado Hybrid 18 21
GMC Sierra Hybrid 18 21

GMC Sierra Non-Hybrid 16 20

Toyota and Honda are clearly leading the race in Hybrids and are in a
class of their own

No wonder they are winning

Question is if GM and Ford will be able to enter the race and really
compete or if they will go belly up

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 24 Jun 2006, 11:30 pm
ACAR
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Default Re: efficient hybrid


Gosi wrote:
>snip
> Question is if GM and Ford will be able to enter the race and really
> compete or if they will go belly up


Honda is discontinuing the Insight and the Accord Hybrid is not selling
well. The Civic Hybrid is doing fine. None of the Honda hybrids can run
on electrical power only so Honda calls them Hybrid Assist. Toyota
sells a far more sophisticated hybrid power plant.

In additional to the cars on your list, Toyota recently put a Camry
Hybrid on the market and they also sell a Lexus GS 450H.

So right now Toyota is the clear leader in Hybrid cars. GM or Ford may
make it into the number two spot with 2007 models.

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 25 Jun 2006, 01:15 am
Body Roll
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Default Re: efficient hybrid


Gosi wrote:

> Toyota and Honda are clearly leading the race in Hybrids and are in a
> class of their own
>
> No wonder they are winning
>

You are making an assumption that to make a sale you have to have
a hybrid. But there is a limited supply of morons who want to pay
3x the price of a piece of metal with Chevroyota Metro performance.
The sales for Prius have flattened lately and the worst is yet to come:
the hybrid market crashing as hard as the stock market was farting
in 2000.
But the really worst part is the delayed effect of the heavy metal and
other crap in the batteries. You think the mercury content in the fish
is high enough? Wait till the Prius batteries hit the dumpsters.

> Question is if GM and Ford will be able to enter the race and really
> compete or if they will go belly up


GM and Ford partly are failing because they do not have a product.
With the truck and truck like vehicle sales in the toiled they
just don't have compelling product. One part why Chrysler is not
doing so poorly is because it seems to have enough brains to carve
niches (successfully). First recent success was a fattened neon
with the gangsteria look and feel. Now there is Dodge Ghetto
Blaster with a similar Chrysler Inner City. Performance sucks,
but minorities seem to be buying into it. Some people would
buy anything to avoid shifting.

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 25 Jun 2006, 02:28 am
Gosi
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Default Re: efficient hybrid

What is the MPG for Toyota Camry Hybrid and Lexus GS 450H?

There seem to be - basically - two kind of hybrids

a) One that is designed to be a hybrid and is doing very well in MPG
terms and is utilizing the hybrid technology and are sure to develop
into the future

b) Another that has just thrown in a bigger starter which is often
clumsy and have nothing in common with the real hybrids

a) is obviously interesting and will change the cars into new
technologies using new materials and new fuel/energy

b) is going nowhere and is just trying to ride on the wave of
popularity the hybrids have and it is typical of the old losers to try
that on now that they are Too Late out as usual and typically do Too
Little - TL*2

a) Toyota Prius was designed from the ground up as a Hybrid 10 years
ago taking advantage of the then available technologies

I am pretty sure they have learned a lot since then and are coming out
with newer generations of hybrids

b) The others GM/FORD/... who are entering the hybrid market now and
doing it as an afterthought are only now beginning to realize what they
should have done 20 years ago

They do not have the experience/skills/flexibility that Toyota has and

The story of the hybrid is the story of the car in general only much
shorter and going much faster

a) Those who can make good hybrids will live into the future and not
just because they can make good hybrids but because they listen to the
market and do good job of manufactoring

b) those who fake it like they have done in the past GM/FORD/... will
continue their death struggle for a while but like the other dinosauros
before them will they only be fossils for future historians to
speculate what happened

Bean counters GM/FORD/.. can be ok at old technologies but they suck at
flexibility and innovation



ACAR wrote:
> Gosi wrote:
> >snip
> > Question is if GM and Ford will be able to enter the race and really
> > compete or if they will go belly up

>
> Honda is discontinuing the Insight and the Accord Hybrid is not selling
> well. The Civic Hybrid is doing fine. None of the Honda hybrids can run
> on electrical power only so Honda calls them Hybrid Assist. Toyota
> sells a far more sophisticated hybrid power plant.
>
> In additional to the cars on your list, Toyota recently put a Camry
> Hybrid on the market and they also sell a Lexus GS 450H.
>
> So right now Toyota is the clear leader in Hybrid cars. GM or Ford may
> make it into the number two spot with 2007 models.


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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 25 Jun 2006, 06:35 am
Edwin Pawlowski
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: efficient hybrid


"Gosi" <gosinn@gmail.com> wrote in message
> b) Another that has just thrown in a bigger starter which is often
> clumsy and have nothing in common with the real hybrids


> b) is going nowhere and is just trying to ride on the wave of
> popularity the hybrids have and it is typical of the old losers to try
> that on now that they are Too Late out as usual and typically do Too
> Little - TL*2


The new hybrids serve a very important purpose. Owners of SUVs have been
getting bashed for their use of huge amounts of fuel and other resources to
haul a bag of groceries a mile once a week. The new hybrid allows the owner
to thumb their nose at the critics, thus showing they are as environmentally
concerned as the owners of a Prius. Well worth the extra money, IMO.


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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 25 Jun 2006, 06:52 am
Gosi
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: efficient hybrid

Hybrid car sales have risen consistently in the U.S., since the Honda
Insight debuted in the American market in 1999. In that year, only a
couple of hundred Insights were sold. U.S. hybrid sales have generally
doubled every year:

* 9,350 in 2000
* 20,287 in 2001
* 35,000 in 2002
* 47,525 in 2003
* 88,000 in 2004
* 205,749 in 2005
* 93,823 in 2006 (thru May)

Hybrids represented 1.2 percent of the total vehicles sold in 2005. The
Toyota Prius led the way with 107,897 cars sold for the year-52
percent of the total hybrid market. The next most popular hybrid was
the Honda Civic Hybrid, which sold nearly 26,000 units.
2006 Hybrid Sales - By Model
Jan. Feb. Mar. Apr. May
Toyota Prius 7,654 6,547 7,922 8,234 8,103
Honda Civic 3,165 1,780 2,232 3,087 2,890
Toyota Highlander 2,263 2,631 2,987 3,786 3,755
Lexus RX 400h 1,477 1,803 2,470 2,247 2,006
Ford Escape 801 1,233 1,590 3,420 2,862
Mercury Mariner 97 108
Toyota Camry - - - 86 3,032
Lexus GS 450h - - - - 294
Honda Accord 351 783 581 614 520
Honda Insight 59 72 79 110 92
Totals 15,867 14,957 17,861 21,584 23,554
Total for Year (to date)
93,823

Regional Breakdown
The best indicator of adoption rates by geography are new hybrid
vehicle registrations. In 2005, California strongly outpaced all other
states with 52,619 new hybrid vehicle registrations, about 5 times that
of second place Florida with 10,470. Texas came in third with 9,632;
New York came in fourth with 9,372; and Virginia rounds out the top
five with 8,650 new hybrid vehicle registrations in 2005.

In 2005, Los Angeles remains the top metropolitan area for hybrid
vehicles with 22,922 new hybrid vehicle registrations. San Francisco
also kept its number two ranking with 15,828 registrations, followed by
New York with 11,351 hybrids. Washington, D.C. came in fourth at 9,396,
followed by Boston with 3,641 new hybrid vehicle registrations in 2005.
Each of these markets experienced significant growth in the number of
new hybrid vehicle registrations compared with the previous year.

Where Do We Go From Here?
What are the market research firms predicting for the rest of the
decade? Some are more optimistic than others, but all see a dramatic
and consistent increase over the next several years:

* By 2006, sales of hybrid vehicles will account for 10 percent of
the 2 million midsize vehicles sold annually in the United States (ABI
Research)
* By 2007, at least 20 new hybrid models will appear in America
(CSM Worldwide)
* By 2007, over 400,000 hybrid vehicles will be sold in the USA
(J.D. Power)
* By 2008, 1.2 million hybrids will be sold in the U.S. market (Oak
Ridge Labs)
* By 2008, car buyers will have a choice of 35 hybrids (J.D. Power)
* By 2010, 5 - 6% of all cars sold in America will be hybrids,
assuming current petrol prices persist (ABI Research & Automotive
Technology Research Group).
* By 2011, about 35 hybrid models will be on the market , with that
number exceeding 50 in 2012 (J.D. Power).

The most conservative estimate for 2010 and beyond has J.D. Power
forecasting a plateau of three percent hybrid penetration in the U.S.
market. The most optimistic and forward-looking prediction comes from
Booz Allen Hamilton, a global strategy and technology-consulting firm.
They predict that hybrid cars will make up 80 percent of the overall
car market by 2015.

ExxonMobil, in its most recent outlook way out to the year 2030, pegs
hybrid car sales at 30 percent of the new car market. The U.S. Energy
Information Administration takes a more conservative longterm view,
projecting hybrid sales at about seven percent, or 1.5 million sales,
by 2025.

Despite rapid increases, hybrids as a percent of all vehicles in use
will remain modest for a long time.

What Are The Manufacturers Saying?
"Hybrids are different than most technologies," said John German,
manager of Environmental and Energy Analyses for American Honda, "If
an OEM is sitting back on developing diesel engines, he won't be in
too much trouble. But with hybrids, it's becoming more and more
sophisticated. You just can't turn it on. If you don't make the
system now, as Toyota continues to make hybrids much cheaper and in
greater numbers, the others won't be able to catch up."

German pondered that hybrids could reach 50 - 70 percent of the
market in 10 years. He added, "I live in Detroit. I don't want to
see the Big 3 go out of business. But that's a possibility."

Dr. Michael Tamor, manager of Ford's Sustainable Mobility
Technologies stated, "If you think about the 15- to 20-year
timeframe, you could argue that all vehicles are going to be hybrids.
It's just a matter of which powerplant is used in the hybrid
system." Tamor added, "To freeze time and pretend that hybrids are
not going to happen doesn't make sense."

http://www.hybridcars.com/sales-numbers.html




Body Roll wrote:
> You are making an assumption that to make a sale you have to have
> a hybrid. But there is a limited supply of morons who want to pay
> 3x the price of a piece of metal with Chevroyota Metro performance.
> The sales for Prius have flattened lately and the worst is yet to come:
> the hybrid market crashing as hard as the stock market was farting
> in 2000.
> But the really worst part is the delayed effect of the heavy metal and
> other crap in the batteries. You think the mercury content in the fish
> is high enough? Wait till the Prius batteries hit the dumpsters.
>
> > Question is if GM and Ford will be able to enter the race and really
> > compete or if they will go belly up

>
> GM and Ford partly are failing because they do not have a product.
> With the truck and truck like vehicle sales in the toiled they
> just don't have compelling product. One part why Chrysler is not
> doing so poorly is because it seems to have enough brains to carve
> niches (successfully). First recent success was a fattened neon
> with the gangsteria look and feel. Now there is Dodge Ghetto
> Blaster with a similar Chrysler Inner City. Performance sucks,
> but minorities seem to be buying into it. Some people would
> buy anything to avoid shifting.


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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 25 Jun 2006, 07:37 am
Leonard Caillouet
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: efficient hybrid


"Gosi" <gosinn@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1151204200.528514.223140@b68g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> hybrid model MPG City MPG Highway
> Honda Insight 60 66
> Toyota Prius 60 51
>
> Honda Civic Hybrid 49 51
>
> Ford Escape Hybrid 36 31
> Lexus RX Hybrid 33 28
> Mercury Mariner Hybrid 33 29
> Toyota Highlander Hybrid 33 28
> Honda Accord Hybrid 30 37
>
> Chevrolet Silverado Hybrid 18 21
> GMC Sierra Hybrid 18 21
>
> GMC Sierra Non-Hybrid 16 20
>
> Toyota and Honda are clearly leading the race in Hybrids and are in a
> class of their own
>
> No wonder they are winning
>
> Question is if GM and Ford will be able to enter the race and really
> compete or if they will go belly up


When you look at the similar vehicles, the Toyota is in the same range as
the others. Considering that Honda is getting rid of the Insight, maybe
they are not so far out. When GM and Ford start making smaller vehicles
available with hybrid technology, I suspect you will see similar
performance. Now whether they will work well over time is another matter.

Leonard


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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 25 Jun 2006, 07:40 am
Leonard Caillouet
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: efficient hybrid


"Edwin Pawlowski" <esp@snet.net> wrote in message
news:ryung.72746$4L1.61537@newssvr11.news.prodigy. com...
>
> "Gosi" <gosinn@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> b) Another that has just thrown in a bigger starter which is often
>> clumsy and have nothing in common with the real hybrids

>
>> b) is going nowhere and is just trying to ride on the wave of
>> popularity the hybrids have and it is typical of the old losers to try
>> that on now that they are Too Late out as usual and typically do Too
>> Little - TL*2

>
> The new hybrids serve a very important purpose. Owners of SUVs have been
> getting bashed for their use of huge amounts of fuel and other resources
> to haul a bag of groceries a mile once a week. The new hybrid allows the
> owner to thumb their nose at the critics, thus showing they are as
> environmentally concerned as the owners of a Prius. Well worth the extra
> money, IMO.


I suspect that the typical SUV owner is not as concerned about the
environment as the typical Prius owner. If it was so you would see a lot
less breast jobs driving the SUV with no other passengers.

Leonard


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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 25 Jun 2006, 08:22 am
Gosi
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: efficient hybrid


Leonard Caillouet wrote:
> "Gosi" <gosinn@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1151204200.528514.223140@b68g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> > hybrid model MPG City MPG Highway
> > Honda Insight 60 66
> > Toyota Prius 60 51

......

> When you look at the similar vehicles, the Toyota is in the same range as
> the others.


There are none of the others close to these numbers

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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 25 Jun 2006, 09:07 am
Edwin Pawlowski
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: efficient hybrid


"Gosi" <gosinn@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1151241726.525661.120320@p79g2000cwp.googlegr oups.com...
>
> Leonard Caillouet wrote:
>> "Gosi" <gosinn@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1151204200.528514.223140@b68g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
>> > hybrid model MPG City MPG Highway
>> > Honda Insight 60 66
>> > Toyota Prius 60 51

> .....
>
>> When you look at the similar vehicles, the Toyota is in the same range as
>> the others.

>
> There are none of the others close to these numbers


Do you really expect a full sized SUV to get close to them?



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