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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 20 Jun 2006, 05:59 am
TE Chea
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Default design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant

* via thermostat is [i] steel-piped next to & heat is transferred into
rocker cover's breather hose
http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/g...3d800cf9d1.gif
, this heated air is then sucked through PCV valve & into intake
manifold.chamber [ii] rubber-hosed into bottom of throttle body
http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/g...3d800cf4a6.gif
, & heat flows into the air passing throttle.
Both designs make air intake & cylinder head unduly hot
www.circletrack.com/techarticles/1822/ : whenever intake manifold
heats up ( esp in long trips ), torque drops & warm-starts are difficult
, both because hot air cannot expand much when heated. Ideal
temperature of air to receive injectors' spray of petrol is just 40C =
104F ( www.turborick.com/gsxr1127/gasoline.html para 10.2[7] ).
Intake manifold where injectors spray petrol ( near cylinder head ) &
chamber already get heat from manifold's contact with cylinder head,
EAC & Fast Idle valves ( both heated by * ), certainly do not need
more heat. If designer wanted manifold to heat up fast, then throttle
body must have a thermostat to stop * inflow when throttle is heated
to 40C. These 2 designs make steep hill climbing slow & weak ; *
& air intake will both be @ their hottest, & torque will be lowest (
ironically, when torque is needed most ).
After I disabled these 2 designs, in 28C air, [i] chamber, manifold
& cylinder head are cooler, benefits are many e.g. 1 can use ( cheaper
) mineral oil & lower viscosity [ii] torque ( 5% > before ) does not
drop after * heats up [iii] warm-starts are easier.


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 20 Jun 2006, 06:40 am
Kevin McMurtrie
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Default Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant

In article <4497c80e_1@news.tm.net.my>, "TE Chea" <4ws@gmail.com>
wrote:

> * via thermostat is [i] steel-piped next to & heat is transferred into
> rocker cover's breather hose
> http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/g...3d800cf9d1.gif
> , this heated air is then sucked through PCV valve & into intake
> manifold.chamber [ii] rubber-hosed into bottom of throttle body
> http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/g...3d800cf4a6.gif
> , & heat flows into the air passing throttle.
> Both designs make air intake & cylinder head unduly hot
> www.circletrack.com/techarticles/1822/ : whenever intake manifold
> heats up ( esp in long trips ), torque drops & warm-starts are difficult
> , both because hot air cannot expand much when heated. Ideal
> temperature of air to receive injectors' spray of petrol is just 40C =
> 104F ( www.turborick.com/gsxr1127/gasoline.html para 10.2[7] ).
> Intake manifold where injectors spray petrol ( near cylinder head ) &
> chamber already get heat from manifold's contact with cylinder head,
> EAC & Fast Idle valves ( both heated by * ), certainly do not need
> more heat. If designer wanted manifold to heat up fast, then throttle
> body must have a thermostat to stop * inflow when throttle is heated
> to 40C. These 2 designs make steep hill climbing slow & weak ; *
> & air intake will both be @ their hottest, & torque will be lowest (
> ironically, when torque is needed most ).
> After I disabled these 2 designs, in 28C air, [i] chamber, manifold
> & cylinder head are cooler, benefits are many e.g. 1 can use ( cheaper
> ) mineral oil & lower viscosity [ii] torque ( 5% > before ) does not
> drop after * heats up [iii] warm-starts are easier.


There isn't supposed to be much air flowing through a PCV system.

Maybe the thermostat for your throttle body, if it has one, is faulty.
It's supposed to keep it warm, not hot.

Maybe you fixed a symptom, not a problem? Your posting is hardly clear.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 20 Jun 2006, 09:23 am
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant

TE Chea wrote:
<snip>

you need to stop drinking the "cold air intake" coolaid there guy. it
may be fine for you kidz in the nice warm county of l.a. to run about
with disabled de-icing equipment, but anywhere else in the country, it
becomes a bit of an issue when your car sputters to a halt because of
ice buildup.

as an aside, i had my air intake cover off the other day, and forgot to
screw it on tightly. the screws worked their way out after a few
hundred miles, and the air intake cover popped off. it was noticeable
by two things:

1. increased noise. ok, ho hum.

2. big /decrease/ in power. the "ultimate" cold air intake, i.e. no
intake at all produces /less/ power???!!! yep, you better believe it.

now, it's possible that some aftermarket manufacturers of air intakes
know what they're doing and understand airflow resonance dynamics and
the effect it has on engine air induction, but somehow i doubt most of
them do. but hey, most of this stuff is not for performance, it's just
for show...
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 20 Jun 2006, 09:55 am
'Curly Q. Links'
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat fromradiator*coolant

TE Chea wrote:
>
> * via thermostat is [i] steel-piped next to & heat is transferred into
> rocker cover's breather hose

<SNIP>
does not drop after * heats up [iii] warm-starts are easier.

--------------------------------------

I looked at your other posts. Why do you own such a badly designed car?

'Curly'
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 20 Jun 2006, 10:54 am
TeGGeR
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant

"'Curly Q. Links'" <motsco__@interbaun.com> wrote in
news:4497FE6A.A71DB324@interbaun.com:

> TE Chea wrote:
>>
>> * via thermostat is [i] steel-piped next to & heat is transferred into
>> rocker cover's breather hose

> <SNIP>
> does not drop after * heats up [iii] warm-starts are easier.
>
> --------------------------------------
>
> I looked at your other posts. Why do you own such a badly designed car?
>




His post makes no sense. I read it twice and still can make neither head
nor tail out of it.

--
TeGGeR

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 20 Jun 2006, 12:07 pm
Jim Yanik
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:lrWdnX4uvr91awrZnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> TE Chea wrote:
><snip>
>
> you need to stop drinking the "cold air intake" coolaid there guy. it
> may be fine for you kidz in the nice warm county of l.a. to run about
> with disabled de-icing equipment, but anywhere else in the country, it
> becomes a bit of an issue when your car sputters to a halt because of
> ice buildup.
>
> as an aside, i had my air intake cover off the other day, and forgot to
> screw it on tightly. the screws worked their way out after a few
> hundred miles, and the air intake cover popped off. it was noticeable
> by two things:
>
> 1. increased noise. ok, ho hum.
>
> 2. big /decrease/ in power. the "ultimate" cold air intake, i.e. no
> intake at all produces /less/ power???!!! yep, you better believe it.


Uh,the air intake is still from the hot under-hood air.All you did was
shorten the intake runner length,which reduces torque.
If you don't believe cold air enables more power,then explain why racers
put scoops and ducts on their race cars.It wouldn't make sense,adding more
drag to get cold air that doesn't produce more power.
>
> now, it's possible that some aftermarket manufacturers of air intakes
> know what they're doing and understand airflow resonance dynamics and
> the effect it has on engine air induction, but somehow i doubt most of
> them do. but hey, most of this stuff is not for performance, it's just
> for show...
>




--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 20 Jun 2006, 09:31 pm
jim beam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant

Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:lrWdnX4uvr91awrZnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>
>>TE Chea wrote:
>><snip>
>>
>>you need to stop drinking the "cold air intake" coolaid there guy. it
>>may be fine for you kidz in the nice warm county of l.a. to run about
>>with disabled de-icing equipment, but anywhere else in the country, it
>>becomes a bit of an issue when your car sputters to a halt because of
>>ice buildup.
>>
>>as an aside, i had my air intake cover off the other day, and forgot to
>>screw it on tightly. the screws worked their way out after a few
>>hundred miles, and the air intake cover popped off. it was noticeable
>>by two things:
>>
>>1. increased noise. ok, ho hum.
>>
>>2. big /decrease/ in power. the "ultimate" cold air intake, i.e. no
>>intake at all produces /less/ power???!!! yep, you better believe it.

>
>
> Uh,the air intake is still from the hot under-hood air.All you did was
> shorten the intake runner length,which reduces torque.
> If you don't believe cold air enables more power,then explain why racers
> put scoops and ducts on their race cars.It wouldn't make sense,adding more
> drag to get cold air that doesn't produce more power.


uh, i understand how it works thanks. what i'm saying is that it's not
so simple as most of the "cai" crowd believes. if the intake tubing is
tuned correctly, i.e. resonances are set specifically, it enhances the
air charge entering the engine. done right, it flattens/broadens
power/torque curves. otherwise you're stuck with huge flat spots in the
engine's performance, exactly what i was experiencing.

"tuning" the air charge has /way/ more effect than the minor density
differences made by a few degrees of ambient air temperature.

>
>>now, it's possible that some aftermarket manufacturers of air intakes
>>know what they're doing and understand airflow resonance dynamics and
>>the effect it has on engine air induction, but somehow i doubt most of
>>them do. but hey, most of this stuff is not for performance, it's just
>>for show...
>>

>
>
>
>

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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 21 Jun 2006, 12:48 am
Gordon McGrew
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant

On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:59:19 +0800, "TE Chea" <4ws@gmail.com> wrote:

> * via thermostat is [i] steel-piped next to & heat is transferred into
>rocker cover's breather hose
>http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/g...3d800cf9d1.gif
>, this heated air is then sucked through PCV valve & into intake
>manifold.chamber [ii] rubber-hosed into bottom of throttle body
>http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/g...3d800cf4a6.gif
>, & heat flows into the air passing throttle.
> Both designs make air intake & cylinder head unduly hot
>www.circletrack.com/techarticles/1822/ : whenever intake manifold
>heats up ( esp in long trips ), torque drops & warm-starts are difficult
>, both because hot air cannot expand much when heated. Ideal
>temperature of air to receive injectors' spray of petrol is just 40C =
>104F ( www.turborick.com/gsxr1127/gasoline.html para 10.2[7] ).
>Intake manifold where injectors spray petrol ( near cylinder head ) &
>chamber already get heat from manifold's contact with cylinder head,
>EAC & Fast Idle valves ( both heated by * ), certainly do not need
>more heat. If designer wanted manifold to heat up fast, then throttle
>body must have a thermostat to stop * inflow when throttle is heated
>to 40C. These 2 designs make steep hill climbing slow & weak ; *
>& air intake will both be @ their hottest, & torque will be lowest (
>ironically, when torque is needed most ).
> After I disabled these 2 designs, in 28C air, [i] chamber, manifold
>& cylinder head are cooler, benefits are many e.g. 1 can use ( cheaper
>) mineral oil & lower viscosity [ii] torque ( 5% > before ) does not
>drop after * heats up [iii] warm-starts are easier.


I think one of your modifications is allowing carbon monoxide into the
cabin.




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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 21 Jun 2006, 04:19 am
LAZO
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant

http://groups.google.com.tr/group/Ta...1?lnk=li&hl=tr

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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 21 Jun 2006, 11:31 am
Jim Yanik
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: design flaw : F20A 's air intake gets useless heat from radiator*coolant

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:OuqdnUjFs9QaPAXZnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
>> news:lrWdnX4uvr91awrZnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>>
>>
>>>TE Chea wrote:
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>you need to stop drinking the "cold air intake" coolaid there guy.
>>>it may be fine for you kidz in the nice warm county of l.a. to run
>>>about with disabled de-icing equipment, but anywhere else in the
>>>country, it becomes a bit of an issue when your car sputters to a
>>>halt because of ice buildup.
>>>
>>>as an aside, i had my air intake cover off the other day, and forgot
>>>to screw it on tightly. the screws worked their way out after a few
>>>hundred miles, and the air intake cover popped off. it was
>>>noticeable by two things:
>>>
>>>1. increased noise. ok, ho hum.
>>>
>>>2. big /decrease/ in power. the "ultimate" cold air intake, i.e. no
>>>intake at all produces /less/ power???!!! yep, you better believe
>>>it.

>>
>>
>> Uh,the air intake is still from the hot under-hood air.All you did
>> was shorten the intake runner length,which reduces torque.
>> If you don't believe cold air enables more power,then explain why
>> racers put scoops and ducts on their race cars.It wouldn't make
>> sense,adding more drag to get cold air that doesn't produce more
>> power.

>
> uh, i understand how it works thanks. what i'm saying is that it's
> not so simple as most of the "cai" crowd believes. if the intake
> tubing is tuned correctly, i.e. resonances are set specifically, it
> enhances the air charge entering the engine. done right, it
> flattens/broadens power/torque curves. otherwise you're stuck with
> huge flat spots in the engine's performance, exactly what i was
> experiencing.
>
> "tuning" the air charge has /way/ more effect than the minor density
> differences made by a few degrees of ambient air temperature.
>
>>
>>>now, it's possible that some aftermarket manufacturers of air intakes
>>>know what they're doing and understand airflow resonance dynamics and
>>>the effect it has on engine air induction, but somehow i doubt most
>>>of them do. but hey, most of this stuff is not for performance, it's
>>>just for show...
>>>

>>
>>
>>
>>

>


If Honda Tuning Magazine still has the article,they did flow bench and dyno
tests on an RSX for several different brands of short rams and two cold air
intakes.They did a reference test on the unaltered vehicle,then tested each
intake system.Both CAIs got 20HP and modest torque increases.The short rams
only got 5-7 HP gains. They included their graphs in the magazine
article.They also discussed the effect of intake air temperature WRT making
power.

It was a very informative article.Maybe you can get a back issue.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
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