Honda Car Forum

1989 Honda Civic Wagovan

Problem began about two years ago. Sometimes the car would not start if
you tried to start it within a few minutes after it had been driven and
turned off. It would grind and grind. But, if you waited about 5
minutes, it started. Initially, this difficulty would occur rarely,
then more often. It always started if the car had been sitting a long
time, anywhere from 10 minutes to overnight, or several days.

About 6 months ago, though, it would not start at all. Luckily, this
happened one morning while it was still in the garage. No intermittent
problem this time - grind and grind, but no starting. So, we had a
mechanic test the main relay, all the electrical connections, and all
the fuel connections. He sprayed something in the fuel injector
mechanism, and the car started and ran - so he knew everything past
that was OK. He said we should hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds
when the ignition is turned to ON. But, we heard nothing. To be sure,
though, he circumvented the main relay, but still no fuel pump noise.
So, we replaced the fuel pump and the fuel filter. After he removed the
old fuel pump, he wired it directly to the battery, and of course it
ran. He said that kind of thing can happen. Well, OK.

After the replacement was made, the car started. And I turned it off
and started it several times, including after driving it for a while.
And it kept starting and running fine - for two months. Then, one day
after I had been driving for a while, I had to start the car after it
had been parked for just a few minutes. Grind, grind, grind, but no
starting. Waited a few more minutes, and it started. Same thing
happened a month later. I replaced the spark plugs, which had been a
bit overdue. Now we're having the same problem with the engine
grinding, but not turning over, if the car has only been sitting a few
minutes after being driven and turned off. I always listen first to
hear the fuel pump run, and it is running - every time, whether the
engine starts or not. One other thing to mention - our driving habits
with this car: it is mainly used for very short trips in our
neighborhood - no more than a few miles at a time, sometimes with
several consecutive short trips on Saturday mornings when my wife goes
to garage sales.

What do you think the problem is?

I realize you mention the main relay below. Have you ever
had it replaced or repaired?

If you haven't read the following link before, take a look
at it and make sure it's truly not the main relay. 'Cause
your symptoms sure sound like it.

http://tegger.com/hondafaq/startproblems.html#mainrelay

(Tegger: The "How Can I Fix It" link is broken.)

Quick and dirty check: Next time the problem occurs, hit the
dashboard down near your left knee. This momentarily
corrects a soldering problem in the main relay and may allow
the car to start.

"Neil" <nhmiller@aol.com> wrote
> 1989 Honda Civic Wagovan
>
> Problem began about two years ago. Sometimes the car would
> not start if
> you tried to start it within a few minutes after it had
> been driven and
> turned off. It would grind and grind. But, if you waited
> about 5
> minutes, it started. Initially, this difficulty would
> occur rarely,
> then more often. It always started if the car had been
> sitting a long
> time, anywhere from 10 minutes to overnight, or several
> days.
>
> About 6 months ago, though, it would not start at all.
> Luckily, this
> happened one morning while it was still in the garage. No
> intermittent
> problem this time - grind and grind, but no starting. So,
> we had a
> mechanic test the main relay, all the electrical
> connections, and all
> the fuel connections. He sprayed something in the fuel
> injector
> mechanism, and the car started and ran - so he knew
> everything past
> that was OK. He said we should hear the fuel pump run for
> a few seconds
> when the ignition is turned to ON. But, we heard nothing.
> To be sure,
> though, he circumvented the main relay, but still no fuel
> pump noise.
> So, we replaced the fuel pump and the fuel filter. After
> he removed the
> old fuel pump, he wired it directly to the battery, and of
> course it
> ran. He said that kind of thing can happen. Well, OK.
>
> After the replacement was made, the car started. And I
> turned it off
> and started it several times, including after driving it
> for a while.
> And it kept starting and running fine - for two months.
> Then, one day
> after I had been driving for a while, I had to start the
> car after it
> had been parked for just a few minutes. Grind, grind,
> grind, but no
> starting. Waited a few more minutes, and it started. Same
> thing
> happened a month later. I replaced the spark plugs, which
> had been a
> bit overdue. Now we're having the same problem with the
> engine
> grinding, but not turning over, if the car has only been
> sitting a few
> minutes after being driven and turned off. I always listen
> first to
> hear the fuel pump run, and it is running - every time,
> whether the
> engine starts or not. One other thing to mention - our
> driving habits
> with this car: it is mainly used for very short trips in
> our
> neighborhood - no more than a few miles at a time,
> sometimes with
> several consecutive short trips on Saturday mornings when
> my wife goes
> to garage sales.
>
> What do you think the problem is?
>

Yes, we checked the relay, because that came up in other posts when I
first had the permanent starting problem -- when the car never started.
I'll try the kick you suggest. Why would my problem only happen within
a few minutes of turning off the engine?

"Neil" <nhmiller@aol.com> wrote in
news:1148070996.808614.55840@g10g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com:

> 1989 Honda Civic Wagovan
>
> Problem began about two years ago. Sometimes the car would not start if
> you tried to start it within a few minutes after it had been driven and
> turned off. It would grind and grind. But, if you waited about 5
> minutes, it started. Initially, this difficulty would occur rarely,
> then more often. It always started if the car had been sitting a long
> time, anywhere from 10 minutes to overnight, or several days.
>
> About 6 months ago, though, it would not start at all. Luckily, this
> happened one morning while it was still in the garage. No intermittent
> problem this time - grind and grind, but no starting. So, we had a
> mechanic test the main relay, all the electrical connections, and all
> the fuel connections. He sprayed something in the fuel injector
> mechanism, and the car started and ran - so he knew everything past
> that was OK. He said we should hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds
> when the ignition is turned to ON. But, we heard nothing. To be sure,
> though, he circumvented the main relay, but still no fuel pump noise.
> So, we replaced the fuel pump and the fuel filter. After he removed the
> old fuel pump, he wired it directly to the battery, and of course it
> ran. He said that kind of thing can happen.

??? I wonder if he "circumvented" the main relay correctly.
Is that the "testing" you mentioned?


>Well, OK.
>
> After the replacement was made, the car started. And I turned it off
> and started it several times, including after driving it for a while.
> And it kept starting and running fine - for two months. Then, one day
> after I had been driving for a while, I had to start the car after it
> had been parked for just a few minutes. Grind, grind, grind, but no
> starting. Waited a few more minutes, and it started. Same thing
> happened a month later. I replaced the spark plugs, which had been a
> bit overdue. Now we're having the same problem with the engine
> grinding, but not turning over, if the car has only been sitting a few
> minutes after being driven and turned off. I always listen first to
> hear the fuel pump run, and it is running - every time, whether the
> engine starts or not. One other thing to mention - our driving habits
> with this car: it is mainly used for very short trips in our
> neighborhood - no more than a few miles at a time, sometimes with
> several consecutive short trips on Saturday mornings when my wife goes
> to garage sales.
>
> What do you think the problem is?
>

Check the pressure at the fuel rail,see if it's dropping;that would show
leaky injectors.

I still believe you should remove and resolder the main relay,just to
*eliminate* it as a trouble source.
Since it's failure mode is an -intermittent-,"testing" it would not show
anything useful.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

From Tegger's site:

"As stated earier, the Main Relay gets fairly hot in use.
When you shut the car off, it cools down again. Since the
circuit board, the solder, and the pins on the components
all expand and contract at different rates, it's inevitable
that the weakest point will fail, and that's the solder.

When the solder cracks, it's called a "dry joint", and
causes either a complete failure to conduct electricity, or
intermittent conductivity. Often, a joint may be fine when
cold, and become non-conductive when hot, or vice versa,
leading to confusing symptoms that occur only when the car
is hot, or only when cold, but not in both circumstances."

"Neil" <nhmiller@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1148072869.555258.168970@i39g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> Yes, we checked the relay, because that came up in other
> posts when I
> first had the permanent starting problem -- when the car
> never started.
> I'll try the kick you suggest. Why would my problem only
> happen within
> a few minutes of turning off the engine?
>

Regarding the relay -- the "check" was testing with a meter using the
instructions in the Chilton manual. I always listen carefully to hear
the fuel pump motor at the ON position, before trying to start the car,
and I always hear it, even the times when the car does not start.
Wouldn't that indicate the relay is working? Also, the last time the
problem occurred, I kept the key in the start position for 15 or 20
seconds, and the engine eventually turned over. Let me know if this
helps get to the solution. Thanks.

In article <Xns97C8B3A166FF9jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.85>, Jim Yanik
<jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> "Neil" <nhmiller@aol.com> wrote in
> news:1148070996.808614.55840@g10g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com:
>
> > 1989 Honda Civic Wagovan
> >
> > Problem began about two years ago. Sometimes the car would not start if
> > you tried to start it within a few minutes after it had been driven and
> > turned off. It would grind and grind. But, if you waited about 5
> > minutes, it started. Initially, this difficulty would occur rarely,
> > then more often. It always started if the car had been sitting a long
> > time, anywhere from 10 minutes to overnight, or several days.
> >
> > About 6 months ago, though, it would not start at all. Luckily, this
> > happened one morning while it was still in the garage. No intermittent
> > problem this time - grind and grind, but no starting. So, we had a
> > mechanic test the main relay, all the electrical connections, and all
> > the fuel connections. He sprayed something in the fuel injector
> > mechanism, and the car started and ran - so he knew everything past
> > that was OK. He said we should hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds
> > when the ignition is turned to ON. But, we heard nothing. To be sure,
> > though, he circumvented the main relay, but still no fuel pump noise.
> > So, we replaced the fuel pump and the fuel filter. After he removed the
> > old fuel pump, he wired it directly to the battery, and of course it
> > ran. He said that kind of thing can happen.
>
> ??? I wonder if he "circumvented" the main relay correctly.
> Is that the "testing" you mentioned?
>
>
> >Well, OK.


I took out my main relay and resoldered all of the circuit board
joints, works fine now.

Bob

> >
> > After the replacement was made, the car started. And I turned it off
> > and started it several times, including after driving it for a while.
> > And it kept starting and running fine - for two months. Then, one day
> > after I had been driving for a while, I had to start the car after it
> > had been parked for just a few minutes. Grind, grind, grind, but no
> > starting. Waited a few more minutes, and it started. Same thing
> > happened a month later. I replaced the spark plugs, which had been a
> > bit overdue. Now we're having the same problem with the engine
> > grinding, but not turning over, if the car has only been sitting a few
> > minutes after being driven and turned off. I always listen first to
> > hear the fuel pump run, and it is running - every time, whether the
> > engine starts or not. One other thing to mention - our driving habits
> > with this car: it is mainly used for very short trips in our
> > neighborhood - no more than a few miles at a time, sometimes with
> > several consecutive short trips on Saturday mornings when my wife goes
> > to garage sales.
> >
> > What do you think the problem is?
> >
>
> Check the pressure at the fuel rail,see if it's dropping;that would show
> leaky injectors.
>
> I still believe you should remove and resolder the main relay,just to
> *eliminate* it as a trouble source.
> Since it's failure mode is an -intermittent-,"testing" it would not show
> anything useful.

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:V6qbg.4138$x4.3271@newsread3.news.pas.earthli nk.net:

> I realize you mention the main relay below. Have you ever
> had it replaced or repaired?
>
> If you haven't read the following link before, take a look
> at it and make sure it's truly not the main relay. 'Cause
> your symptoms sure sound like it.
>
> http://tegger.com/hondafaq/startproblems.html#mainrelay
>
> (Tegger: The "How Can I Fix It" link is broken.)



Yup, it sure was. But it's fixed now. Thanks for the heads-up.

I'd have thought Mark would have let me know when he moved his Web site
around...




--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Neil wrote:
>
> Yes, we checked the relay, because that came up in other posts when I
> first had the permanent starting problem -- when the car never started.
> I'll try the kick you suggest. Why would my problem only happen within
> a few minutes of turning off the engine?


----------------------------------------

Vibration, or a temperature change will make the relay start working . .
.. That's why it will restart if you let it cool down (inside the car),
or if you smack the dash / slam the door while cranking it. Once the
engine restarts the vibration guarantees it will run until you next shut
the key off.

Get it resoldered. Save everybody the grief.

'Curly'

"Neil" <nhmiller@aol.com> wrote in
news:1148078403.117866.291900@u72g2000cwu.googlegr oups.com:

> Regarding the relay -- the "check" was testing with a meter using the
> instructions in the Chilton manual. I always listen carefully to hear
> the fuel pump motor at the ON position, before trying to start the car,
> and I always hear it, even the times when the car does not start.
> Wouldn't that indicate the relay is working? Also, the last time the
> problem occurred, I kept the key in the start position for 15 or 20
> seconds, and the engine eventually turned over. Let me know if this
> helps get to the solution. Thanks.
>
>

Sounds like a flooded motor.

Perhaps you have a leaky injector -if your fuel pressure at the rail does
not hold as specified.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net