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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 15 May 2006, 12:39 am
Ryan Underwood
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Default water pump, head bolts on 90 accord EX

Hey,

We just took this 90 accord apart, a burned valve from leaking valve stem
seals. It is the F22A4 motor with 200k on it. The compression numbers besides
the blown cylinder were consistent. The head is in the shop now. In the
meantime I bought a Felpro gasket set, Gates timing kit, various tune up
components. However, I am stuck on a few things.

- The head bolts that came out look like standard hardened steel bolts. One of
them is much longer than the others. The torque specification is 3 stage,
not a torque + angle. Are these head bolts reusable (i.e. after cleaning up
the threads with a die) or do I need to buy new ones?

- I have a choice of a reman Cardone brand water pump, or a NEW "Master" brand
water pump at the parts stores. Should I go cheap or play it safe and get
the OEM pump, and if OEM where can I get a good price on it?

- What do I call the o-rings that keep oil out of the spark plug holes from the
valve cover? The parts stores have no idea what I am talking about or how to
look them up.

- There were not oil pressure problems. Should I worry about a new oil pump or
leave well enough alone?


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 15 May 2006, 06:57 am
Eric
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Default Re: water pump, head bolts on 90 accord EX

Ryan Underwood wrote:
>
> Hey,
>
> We just took this 90 accord apart, a burned valve from leaking valve stem
> seals. It is the F22A4 motor with 200k on it. The compression numbers
> besides the blown cylinder were consistent. The head is in the shop now.
> In the meantime I bought a Felpro gasket set,


Using a Honda OEM head gasket would be the better option. By the cylinder
head kit and you'll likely save a few $ over buying separate components.

> Gates timing kit, various tune up components. However, I am stuck on a
> few things.
>
> - The head bolts that came out look like standard hardened steel bolts.
> One of them is much longer than the others.


Be sure to put it back in the correct position.

> The torque specification is 3 stage, not a torque + angle. Are these head
> bolts reusable (i.e. after cleaning up the threads with a die) or do I
> need to buy new ones?


Follow the 3 stage torque recommendation using a quality torque wrench. I
like to use a 3/8" drive model since the torque specs are closer to the
midrange of the accuracy of these wrenches. Using a 1/2" drive model puts
the torque specs much too low on the accuracy range of the wrench.

Reusing the head bolts is usually not a problem. Do not run a die over the
bolt threads but clean them with a standard parts cleaner style brush and
solvent. I like to run a tap through the threads in the bolt holes after
soaking them with carburetor cleaner (be absolutely, with out any doubt
what-so-ever, certain that you're using the correct sized tap or it will be
a bad day afterwards). The bolt holes should be blown out with compressed
air afterwards and it may take a couple of cleaning cycles (with carb clean
only) to get all of the gunk out. Be sure to keep any gunk from getting in
the cylinders or meticulously clean it up afterwards. I like to lube the
bolt threads with a thin oil such as LPS #1 and put motor oil between the
head bolt and its washer.

> - I have a choice of a reman Cardone brand water pump, or a NEW "Master"
> brand water pump at the parts stores. Should I go cheap or play it safe
> and get the OEM pump, and if OEM where can I get a good price on it?


This is just my opinion, but a water pump is too important for these cars to
gamble with a rebuilt unit since it's driven by the timing belt. Buy the
new OEM unit. Check the prices at online Honda dealers such as
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com and http://www.slhonda.com.


> - What do I call the o-rings that keep oil out of the spark plug holes
> from the valve cover? The parts stores have no idea what I am talking
> about or how to look them up.


I call them spark plug tube seals and they're standard parts that sometimes
come with the valve cover gasket. If the parts counter people don't know
what you're talking about with such a basic part, then you should switch to
people who are more familiar with Hondas.

> - There were not oil pressure problems. Should I worry about a new oil
> pump or leave well enough alone?


Clean it, measure the tolerances as per the specs in the service manual,
check for atypical wear marks, and reuse it if it's ok.

Eric
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 15 May 2006, 02:57 pm
runderwo@mail.win.org
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Default Re: water pump, head bolts on 90 accord EX

Your post was very informative, thank you. I think the spark plug
seals will come as part of the head set since it comes with a valve
cover.

I have two questions.

What is the difference between the Felpro and Honda gasket? I have
used Felpro in the past with good results, but not a MLS type. Is that
where the complication comes in? I hope the shop gets the surface
finish right because I have heard it is touchy on those.

Also, is there a specific reason why running a die over the head bolts
is a bad idea? Other than that, your notes about preparing the block
and torquing are right in line with my own experience.

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 15 May 2006, 04:14 pm
runderwo@mail.win.org
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Default Re: water pump, head bolts on 90 accord EX

Actually, according to this:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar396.htm

I would be better off with the aftermarket gasket on a MLS application,
because the OEM gasket requires an OEM surface finish which is
difficult to obtain. Felpro says they have some kind of sealant on
their gaskets that is supposed to tolerate non-OEM surface finish
better.

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 15 May 2006, 11:11 pm
jim beam
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Default Re: water pump, head bolts on 90 accord EX

runderwo@mail.win.org wrote:
> Actually, according to this:
>
> http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar396.htm
>
> I would be better off with the aftermarket gasket on a MLS application,
> because the OEM gasket requires an OEM surface finish which is
> difficult to obtain. Felpro says they have some kind of sealant on
> their gaskets that is supposed to tolerate non-OEM surface finish
> better.
>

why does your head not have an oem finish? and it /is/ easy to obtain
if you know what you're doing. if a machine shop tells you different,
you took it to the wrong place. bottom line, it needs to be mirror, or
very close to it. if it's not, no gasket is going to seal, i don't care
who tells you otherwise.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 15 May 2006, 11:21 pm
jim beam
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Default Re: water pump, head bolts on 90 accord EX

runderwo@mail.win.org wrote:
> Your post was very informative, thank you. I think the spark plug
> seals will come as part of the head set since it comes with a valve
> cover.
>
> I have two questions.
>
> What is the difference between the Felpro and Honda gasket? I have
> used Felpro in the past with good results, but not a MLS type. Is that
> where the complication comes in? I hope


"hope"??? why are you having it machined at all??? is it warped? and
you should check by looking at other examples to see if they can do the
job properly.

fyi, valves don't burn because of leaking seals - they burn because they
were damaged, defective or the lash was allowed to become too tight. if
this shop told you a seal caused this valve to burn, you may want to
consider taking this head elsewhere for a second opinion. better yet,
just replace the valve yourself, put the head back on as-is, and drive
it for another 300k miles.

> the shop gets the surface
> finish right because I have heard it is touchy on those.


yes, it sure is.

>
> Also, is there a specific reason why running a die over the head bolts
> is a bad idea?


yes. threads are rolled which makes them fatigue resistant. cut
threads, or threads that have been "cleaned", get minute score marks in
them which can initiate fatigue. thermal cycling in the engine fatigues
bolts real quick if they've been damaged like this. just wire brush
them, if they need cleaning at all, and re-use.

> Other than that, your notes about preparing the block
> and torquing are right in line with my own experience.
>

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 16 May 2006, 10:02 am
runderwo@mail.win.org
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Default Re: water pump, head bolts on 90 accord EX

All the exhaust valves were pretty bad. The way it was explained to me
is that the oil leaking down the valve stem accumulates on the seat
eventually preventing the valves from completely transferring heat to
the seat. Is that wrong?

All the "hoping" is because I had to use a new machine shop due to the
location. I think I will give them a call and remind them not to mess
with the finish on it. The gasket was not blown so there seems little
reason to mess with it especially given the risk.

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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 16 May 2006, 10:04 am
runderwo@mail.win.org
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Default Re: water pump, head bolts on 90 accord EX

Oh, and am I off the mark, or is this motor a strange case - where you
have an open deck motor, but the head bolts are not torque-to-yield
type meaning they can be reused?

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 16 May 2006, 02:16 pm
runderwo@mail.win.org
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Default Re: water pump, head bolts on 90 accord EX

OK, I talked to the guy and made sure he isn't going to mess with the
surface. He said it was true anyway so there's no reason to do anything
with it. On the same page finally!

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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 16 May 2006, 09:09 pm
jim beam
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Default Re: water pump, head bolts on 90 accord EX

runderwo@mail.win.org wrote:
> All the exhaust valves were pretty bad. The way it was explained to me
> is that the oil leaking down the valve stem accumulates on the seat
> eventually preventing the valves from completely transferring heat to
> the seat. Is that wrong?


yes. oil burns off the exhaust valves in a jiffy. carbon also. if the
valves aren't seating it's because they've been bent or the valve lash
is insufficient. in the old days, exhaust valves didn't even have seals.

>
> All the "hoping" is because I had to use a new machine shop due to the
> location. I think I will give them a call and remind them not to mess
> with the finish on it. The gasket was not blown so there seems little
> reason to mess with it especially given the risk.
>

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