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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05 May 2006, 11:48 pm
Elle
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Default Bushing Press (Portable & Home-made) Input Sought

I came across this detailed description of pressing bushings
out of suspension control arms using sockets, high strength
bolts and nuts, washers, and muscle:

http://www.maxcooper.com/rx7/how-to/...lls/index.html

Evidently, sometimes the bolt breaks during this process. I
ran some numbers to get an idea of how likely this might be,
and I'm seeing around a factor of safety of 1.5 to 2
(assuming about four to six tons of force is placed on a
roughly 3/8-inch diameter, grade 8 bolt). People say a 2-ton
shop press isn't enough; a 12-ton should be plenty. Hence
I'm guesstimating six tons of force on the bolt should be
enough.

Has anyone tried this method on his/her Honda's control arm
bushings? Please report if you have.

I am particularly interested in the socket sizes used. If I
can get the right sizes the first time, that would be great.
Otherwise, it's not all that convenient to run (um, bicycle)
back and forth between the several stores I would use for
sockets while my car is out of commission.

I might also call around to some of the salvage yards and
see if they have a bent control arm I could buy very
cheaply. Then I could drive around town with this "spare"
control arm, get the dimensions of the "home-made press"
right, and practice.

My ball joint separator is now on order via Ebay: $35 total
for the two-stage version to which Ryan posted a link
earlier (JTC Auto tools, #1727). This one was available via
bidding as opposed to "buy it now," so it seems I saved a
few bucks.

I do think my new front springs have eliminated some mild
clunkiness (when going over bumps) I heard before.

TIA for helping with my project.


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06 May 2006, 07:13 am
Eric
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Default Re: Bushing Press (Portable & Home-made) Input Sought

Elle wrote:
>
> I came across this detailed description of pressing bushings
> out of suspension control arms using sockets, high strength
> bolts and nuts, washers, and muscle:
>
> http://www.maxcooper.com/rx7/how-to/...lls/index.html
>
> Evidently, sometimes the bolt breaks during this process. I
> ran some numbers to get an idea of how likely this might be,
> and I'm seeing around a factor of safety of 1.5 to 2
> (assuming about four to six tons of force is placed on a
> roughly 3/8-inch diameter, grade 8 bolt). People say a 2-ton
> shop press isn't enough; a 12-ton should be plenty. Hence
> I'm guesstimating six tons of force on the bolt should be
> enough.
>
> Has anyone tried this method on his/her Honda's control arm
> bushings? Please report if you have.
>
> I am particularly interested in the socket sizes used. If I
> can get the right sizes the first time, that would be great.
> Otherwise, it's not all that convenient to run (um, bicycle)
> back and forth between the several stores I would use for
> sockets while my car is out of commission.


Once you get the new bushings in hand, it should be apparent the size of the
sockets you would need to use as press tools.

Eric
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06 May 2006, 08:04 am
Elle
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Bushing Press (Portable & Home-made) Input Sought

"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> Elle wrote:
>>
>> I came across this detailed description of pressing
>> bushings
>> out of suspension control arms using sockets, high
>> strength
>> bolts and nuts, washers, and muscle:
>>
>> http://www.maxcooper.com/rx7/how-to/...lls/index.html
>>
>> Evidently, sometimes the bolt breaks during this process.
>> I
>> ran some numbers to get an idea of how likely this might
>> be,
>> and I'm seeing around a factor of safety of 1.5 to 2
>> (assuming about four to six tons of force is placed on a
>> roughly 3/8-inch diameter, grade 8 bolt). People say a
>> 2-ton
>> shop press isn't enough; a 12-ton should be plenty. Hence
>> I'm guesstimating six tons of force on the bolt should be
>> enough.
>>
>> Has anyone tried this method on his/her Honda's control
>> arm
>> bushings? Please report if you have.
>>
>> I am particularly interested in the socket sizes used. If
>> I
>> can get the right sizes the first time, that would be
>> great.
>> Otherwise, it's not all that convenient to run (um,
>> bicycle)
>> back and forth between the several stores I would use for
>> sockets while my car is out of commission.

>
> Once you get the new bushings in hand, it should be
> apparent the size of the
> sockets you would need to use as press tools.


Shucks yes! Good idea. Thank you, Eric.


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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06 May 2006, 08:26 am
'Curly Q. Links'
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Bushing Press (Portable & Home-made) Input Sought

Elle wrote:
>
> I came across this detailed description of pressing bushings
> out of suspension control arms using sockets, high strength
> bolts and nuts, washers, and muscle:
>
> http://www.maxcooper.com/rx7/how-to/...lls/index.html
>
> Evidently, sometimes the bolt breaks during this process. I
> ran some numbers to get an idea of how likely this might be,
> and I'm seeing around a factor of safety of 1.5 to 2
> (assuming about four to six tons of force is placed on a
> roughly 3/8-inch diameter, grade 8 bolt). People say a 2-ton
> shop press isn't enough; a 12-ton should be plenty. Hence
> I'm guesstimating six tons of force on the bolt should be
> enough.
>
> Has anyone tried this method on his/her Honda's control arm
> bushings? Please report if you have.
>

----------------------------------

Can you get us a link to an item number at www.slhondaparts.com so we
can see which ones you're changing? It's an interesting article, and
I've got some clunks on my CR-v but the parts don't seem to be very
similar to the 1993 Mazda RX-7. I also wondered why he didn't warm
anything up just a bit with a torch.

Thanks.

'Curly'
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06 May 2006, 08:41 am
Elle
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Bushing Press (Portable & Home-made) Input Sought

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...RONT+LOWER+ARM

The first two I want to try to replace are in the front
lower control arms, items 8 and 11 in the drawing above.

I thought the Mazda's "suspension arms" (as the author of
the previous site called them at times) looked similar
enough for my purposes.

I first saw this approach suggested at rec.autos.tech. I
threw it in my notes, then revisited it last night to see if
others were using it and maybe a description existed. Voila.
Others do talk about using it in the Usenet archives, but
not the Honda newsgroups.

Not sure if there's any chance of getting the much larger
(rear) trailing arm bushings out using this
sockets-bolts-nuts-washers approach. But I think I'm awhile
away from trying to tackle those.

I'm still considering the 12-ton A-frame press at Harbor
Freight for $80, on sale through May. Another Mazda guy
described using such a press at
http://www.rx7club.com/archive/index.php/t-268904.html . I'm
just not wild about having the press take up space in my
garage (admittedly a big garage) when I use it so rarely.
I'd be surprised if I could just rent one.

Dunno about the torch. Seems a little tricky heating the
control arm (around the bushing) with all the home-made
"press gear" in place.

I'm pretty settled on Kingmotorsports.com 's Mugen bushings.
I read their site and see their claims that they are Honda
specialized and the only dealer in North America for Mugen.
Their front lower control arm bushing set is about ten
dollars less than the usual online OEM parts places
(slhonda, Majestic, Team Honda, etc.) I've pretty much
talked myself out of polyurethane bushings because of the
noise people report (including, IIRC, J. Beam's experiences)
and the greater difficult (I suspect) of installing these.
Also, the web site
http://www.performanceforum.com/wesv...g/bushing.html
suggests the rubber bushings now available are better than
the original ones installed. Honda Co. made an explicit
change to the material design, or so it seems.

"'Curly Q. Links'" <motsco__@interbaun.com> wrote
> Can you get us a link to an item number at
> www.slhondaparts.com so we
> can see which ones you're changing? It's an interesting
> article, and
> I've got some clunks on my CR-v but the parts don't seem
> to be very
> similar to the 1993 Mazda RX-7. I also wondered why he
> didn't warm
> anything up just a bit with a torch.



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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06 May 2006, 10:59 am
Grumpy AuContraire
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Bushing Press (Portable & Home-made) Input Sought

While the control arm is secure in a vise, I use a chisel and LARGE
hammer to collapse the outer metal shield of the bushing. Been doing
that for years.

When reinstalling, heat the whole control arm up to 150-200 F and the
new bushings will practically "fall into" position. Same trick works
great for leaf spring bushing installations...

JT

(The only laws to abide by are those dealing with physics)




Elle wrote:
>
> http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...RONT+LOWER+ARM
>
> The first two I want to try to replace are in the front
> lower control arms, items 8 and 11 in the drawing above.
>
> I thought the Mazda's "suspension arms" (as the author of
> the previous site called them at times) looked similar
> enough for my purposes.
>
> I first saw this approach suggested at rec.autos.tech. I
> threw it in my notes, then revisited it last night to see if
> others were using it and maybe a description existed. Voila.
> Others do talk about using it in the Usenet archives, but
> not the Honda newsgroups.
>
> Not sure if there's any chance of getting the much larger
> (rear) trailing arm bushings out using this
> sockets-bolts-nuts-washers approach. But I think I'm awhile
> away from trying to tackle those.
>
> I'm still considering the 12-ton A-frame press at Harbor
> Freight for $80, on sale through May. Another Mazda guy
> described using such a press at
> http://www.rx7club.com/archive/index.php/t-268904.html . I'm
> just not wild about having the press take up space in my
> garage (admittedly a big garage) when I use it so rarely.
> I'd be surprised if I could just rent one.
>
> Dunno about the torch. Seems a little tricky heating the
> control arm (around the bushing) with all the home-made
> "press gear" in place.
>
> I'm pretty settled on Kingmotorsports.com 's Mugen bushings.
> I read their site and see their claims that they are Honda
> specialized and the only dealer in North America for Mugen.
> Their front lower control arm bushing set is about ten
> dollars less than the usual online OEM parts places
> (slhonda, Majestic, Team Honda, etc.) I've pretty much
> talked myself out of polyurethane bushings because of the
> noise people report (including, IIRC, J. Beam's experiences)
> and the greater difficult (I suspect) of installing these.
> Also, the web site
> http://www.performanceforum.com/wesv...g/bushing.html
> suggests the rubber bushings now available are better than
> the original ones installed. Honda Co. made an explicit
> change to the material design, or so it seems.
>
> "'Curly Q. Links'" <motsco__@interbaun.com> wrote
> > Can you get us a link to an item number at
> > www.slhondaparts.com so we
> > can see which ones you're changing? It's an interesting
> > article, and
> > I've got some clunks on my CR-v but the parts don't seem
> > to be very
> > similar to the 1993 Mazda RX-7. I also wondered why he
> > didn't warm
> > anything up just a bit with a torch.

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06 May 2006, 10:38 pm
SoCalMike
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Bushing Press (Portable & Home-made) Input Sought

Elle wrote:
> I'm pretty settled on Kingmotorsports.com 's Mugen bushings.
> I read their site and see their claims that they are Honda
> specialized and the only dealer in North America for Mugen.
> Their front lower control arm bushing set is about ten
> dollars less than the usual online OEM parts places
> (slhonda, Majestic, Team Honda, etc.) I've pretty much
> talked myself out of polyurethane bushings because of the
> noise people report (including, IIRC, J. Beam's experiences)


yes. i replaced lower control arm bushings on an 81 rabbit convertible
with aftermarket urethane bushings. they squeaked like i had a styrofoam
cooler under the hood. i dont remember if i was supposed to lube them or
not.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 07 May 2006, 10:28 am
Michael Pardee
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Bushing Press (Portable & Home-made) Input Sought

"SoCalMike" <Mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7KGdnczsoo8x9sDZRVn-og@comcast.com...
>
> yes. i replaced lower control arm bushings on an 81 rabbit convertible
> with aftermarket urethane bushings. they squeaked like i had a styrofoam
> cooler under the hood. i dont remember if i was supposed to lube them or
> not.


The conventional wisdom is that bushings should not be lubricated because it
will affect the "frictional properties" of the bushings. OTOH there is
nothing unusual about bushings with bonded inner and outer sleeves, so....
Anyway Prothane says urethane bushings should be lubricated with their
special lubricant (big surprise!) http://www.prothane.com/pages/faq.html

Google indicates urethane bushing squeaks are a common problem, with at
least one person saying "all urethane bushings squeak."

Mike


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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 09 May 2006, 11:24 am
Elle
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Posts: n/a
Default Update Re: Bushing Press (Portable & Home-made) Input Sought

I have successfully removed the larger bushing in a front
lower control arm for a 91 Civic. The final methodology is
not that labor intensive at all.
Here is an outline of the steps for removing the bushings:

1. With the control arm in a vise, //drill// holes in the
rubber bushing all around the circumference. Use three
different size drill bits, smaller to larger. Use cutting
oil. The rubber drills much easier than steel, though.

2. //Press// out the core (= most of the rubber and the
inner-most metal sleeve) using the method described at
http://www.maxcooper.com/rx7/how-to/...lls/index.html

3. //Saw// the outer sleeve using an ordinary hack saw,
making two cuts about 1/4-inch apart. Be careful not to go
all the way through the sleeve into the control arm metal. A
new blade is desirable, though I used a beat up old blade
and it didn't take long. Use cutting oil.

4. //Tap// the 1/4-inch section out using a chisel or really
any old beat up screwdriver and a low-weight hammer. It
comes out pretty easily. A pair of pliers may come in handy
to twist out where you didn't completely saw through. You
can now push the remainder of the outer sleeve out by
tapping around its circumference. Or it literally peels out
with light tapping.

Applying PB Blaster to the outer sleeve area a day or two
before this, as I did, couldn't hurt.

I am not nearly, physically as wiped out as I was after
using my coil spring compressor to replace the springs on my
front suspension. The worst part has been driving around
finding the right sockets for step 2. I got flustered with
the outer metal sleeve and how that figured into this.

Much of the above comes from Ned Buckmaster, who posted in
1999 on this subject at rec.autos.makers.honda . Ned
actually said one could twist out the core part (step 2).
But I had my sockets already (some used, so I couldn't
return them). Alternatively, plenty of folks in the
rec.autos.tech and other auto archives said one could
propane torch out the core. Someone also noted that an EZ
saw (one of those little portable hand-held electric
jigsaws) worked, too.

It's possible that Max Cooper's little
sockets-bolt-nut-washers home-made press might work with
near perfectly-sized sockets and a little heat, like Curly
suggested.

My local junkyard had a bent-up old control arm that the
owner sold me for around $10 (more parts were part of the
deal, so that's just an approximation). I told the guy what
I was doing and he got a kick out of it. Then we proceeded
to haggle the heck out of this, as is now our custom. I
asked how much he was charging me today for the
"entertainment" of his wild reasoning for the price being
such-and-such, and he laughed. I wanted it; he had it. Fair
trade.

Contrast this with the yahoo at another yard who said I'd
never get the bushings out: 'Ya need a 50-ton press.' I
smiled and said, "Perhaps... " ;-)

I also picked up one old pulley bolt washer and several
thick, Grade 8-looking suspension washers lying around the
yard. These washers seemed to be much better for this
project than what Max used. This includes the false starts
where I didn't have things set up right and applied way more
force than necessary for what I was actually trying to
achieve. I bent one suspension washer a bit, but the pulley
bolt washer was tough and is now looking no worse for the
wear.

I've started some photos and hopefully will put this up at
my web site soon.

Onto seeing if I can get the inboard lower control arm bolts
fully out.

My ball joint separator arrives Thursday. Super fast
shipping from that Ebay seller, JTC auto tools, whom Ryan
cited earlier in a link.

I will order new bushings from Kingmotorsports.com soon.
Then, possibly using Grumpy's tip about heating the arm and
Tegger's tip about cooling the bushings, onto full
replacement of the front lower control arm bushings.


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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 09 May 2006, 09:15 pm
Elle
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Default Re: Update Re: Bushing Press (Portable & Home-made) Input Sought

"Elle" <honda.lioness@spamno.earthlink.net> wrote
> I've started some photos and hopefully will put this up at
> my web site soon.


http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id15.html


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