Honda Car Forum

On 5/31/06 2:02 AM, in article 447D3F95.8F55E481@spam.now, "Eric"
<say.no@spam.now> wrote:

> BE wrote:
>>
>> Took it to the Honda dealer today. The service rep claims that what I am
>> experiencing is 'normal' oil consumption. He cites some technical bulletin
>> written in 1988 that gives validity to the notion that a quart of oil lost
>> every 1000 miles is normal. I just spoke to Honda at their toll-free
>> customer service number and they are also claiming that this is their
>> spec. They are not willing to open the engine unless I foot the bill.
>>
>> What to do now? My inclination is to let an authorized Honda service
>> center do an oil change and not add any oil for the next 3500 miles,
>> letting the engine burn up. I only hope that it doesn't choose to fail
>> when I'm in it with the family on a tall highway bridge. My warranty
>> doesn't obligate me to top it off between oil changes.
>
> That's funny. My '88 Civic with 244,800 miles on it uses less than 0.25
> quarts in 3000 miles. Moreover, a service bulletin written in 1988 is not
> going to be applicable to a newer car. How could they have known what
> problems a 2005 model, for example, was going to have in 1988?!?!?
>
> You may need to get someone to be your advocate and deal with Honda. I
> would take your car to a well respected independent Honda shop in your area
> and have them change the oil and then document the consumption (and absence
> of leaks). Then have them deal with Honda for you if they are willing,
> e.g., you've been or will be a good customer of that particular shop.
> Moreover, sometimes it's best to skip the dealer and go direct to Honda's
> customer relations.
>
> http://automobiles.honda.com/info/cu...ons.asp?bhjs=0
>
> Eric
That toll free number is what I called yesterday (see above) and where I got
the party line on 1000 miles / per quart being OK to lose.

Be

On Wed, 31 May 2006 00:11:59 GMT, BE <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

>On 5/28/06 5:03 PM, in article 8g7k72927bc1unje5cb8oe4hvp79qe1oja@4ax.com,
>"Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 28 May 2006 17:10:10 GMT, BE <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/24/06 12:26 PM, in article
>>> jason-2404061026550001@66-52-22-63.l...ia.impulse.net, "Jason"
>>> <jason@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <C071962A.4B2E4%n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net>, BE
>>>> <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How much do I drive in a couple months? Well, here's the math. The car is
>>>>> one-owner and has been mine for 58 months. It has 41000 miles. That's a
>>>>> shade less than 707 miles per month.... Not an amount that should scare me
>>>>> into checking it weekly, at least not (in my opinion) when a car with
>>>>> Honda's good reputation behind it has less miles on it than some people
>>>>> drive in 18 months.
>>>>>
>>>>> Be
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Be,
>>>> It's my guess that the the rings are starting to wear. A compression check
>>>> during the next scheduled oil change service should reveal any serious
>>>> problems related to the rings. You may also want to have a tune-up in case
>>>> the valves, timing, etc need to be adjusted. If you have a oil change and
>>>> the oil becomes black within two weeks--that could be a sign of a bad head
>>>> gasket. I advise you to check the oil about once a week in order to check
>>>> the level and the color of the oil. Keep a record of the results.
>>>> Jason
>>>
>>> I checked the oil again Saturday and had to add another quart to bring it to
>>> full. I took note of the mileage and will be ready with a hard number of
>>> miles driven when I add the next quart.
>>>
>>> I think the advice here has been valuable and suspect the rings problem now
>>> due to the input given. I'll let you all know how this turns out.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> Be
>>>
>>> ===============================
>>>
>>> OK - here is what I found. I filled the oil to full and took an odometer
>>> reading. Some three weeks [667 miles] later, I needed to add 3/4 of a quart
>>> to bring it back to full again. You could extrapolate that out to say that
>>> for every 900 miles a quart is being consumed.
>>>
>>> Be
>>
>> That's a problem. File a warranty claim.
>>
>Took it to the Honda dealer today. The service rep claims that what I am
>experiencing is 'normal' oil consumption. He cites some technical bulletin
>written in 1988 that gives validity to the notion that a quart of oil lost
>every 1000 miles is normal. I just spoke to Honda at their toll-free
>customer service number and they are also claiming that this is their spec.
>They are not willing to open the engine unless I foot the bill.

But your consumption exceeds the "normal" rate.

>What to do now? My inclination is to let an authorized Honda service center
>do an oil change and not add any oil for the next 3500 miles, letting the
>engine burn up. I only hope that it doesn't choose to fail when I'm in it
>with the family on a tall highway bridge. My warranty doesn't obligate me to
>top it off between oil changes.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it does. You are required to properly
maintain the vehicle. Checking and adding oil is routine maintenance.
Read your owners manual.

Much better that you insist they document oil consumption by topping
it off and having you drive it for 1000 miles. If it takes more than
a quart to bring it back up to full, then your consumption exceeds the
limits of normal and repair is needed.

On 6/2/06 12:45 AM, in article qmjv72du37n95cqj8pm7g6h9idefkuo712@4ax.com,
"Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 31 May 2006 00:11:59 GMT, BE <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On 5/28/06 5:03 PM, in article 8g7k72927bc1unje5cb8oe4hvp79qe1oja@4ax.com,
>> "Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 28 May 2006 17:10:10 GMT, BE <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/24/06 12:26 PM, in article
>>>> jason-2404061026550001@66-52-22-63.l...ia.impulse.net, "Jason"
>>>> <jason@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <C071962A.4B2E4%n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net>, BE
>>>>> <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> How much do I drive in a couple months? Well, here's the math. The car
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> one-owner and has been mine for 58 months. It has 41000 miles. That's a
>>>>>> shade less than 707 miles per month.... Not an amount that should scare
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> into checking it weekly, at least not (in my opinion) when a car with
>>>>>> Honda's good reputation behind it has less miles on it than some people
>>>>>> drive in 18 months.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Be
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Be,
>>>>> It's my guess that the the rings are starting to wear. A compression check
>>>>> during the next scheduled oil change service should reveal any serious
>>>>> problems related to the rings. You may also want to have a tune-up in case
>>>>> the valves, timing, etc need to be adjusted. If you have a oil change and
>>>>> the oil becomes black within two weeks--that could be a sign of a bad head
>>>>> gasket. I advise you to check the oil about once a week in order to check
>>>>> the level and the color of the oil. Keep a record of the results.
>>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>> I checked the oil again Saturday and had to add another quart to bring it
>>>> to
>>>> full. I took note of the mileage and will be ready with a hard number of
>>>> miles driven when I add the next quart.
>>>>
>>>> I think the advice here has been valuable and suspect the rings problem now
>>>> due to the input given. I'll let you all know how this turns out.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Be
>>>>
>>>> ===============================
>>>>
>>>> OK - here is what I found. I filled the oil to full and took an odometer
>>>> reading. Some three weeks [667 miles] later, I needed to add 3/4 of a quart
>>>> to bring it back to full again. You could extrapolate that out to say that
>>>> for every 900 miles a quart is being consumed.
>>>>
>>>> Be
>>>
>>> That's a problem. File a warranty claim.
>>>
>> Took it to the Honda dealer today. The service rep claims that what I am
>> experiencing is 'normal' oil consumption. He cites some technical bulletin
>> written in 1988 that gives validity to the notion that a quart of oil lost
>> every 1000 miles is normal. I just spoke to Honda at their toll-free
>> customer service number and they are also claiming that this is their spec.
>> They are not willing to open the engine unless I foot the bill.
>
> But your consumption exceeds the "normal" rate.
>
>> What to do now? My inclination is to let an authorized Honda service center
>> do an oil change and not add any oil for the next 3500 miles, letting the
>> engine burn up. I only hope that it doesn't choose to fail when I'm in it
>> with the family on a tall highway bridge. My warranty doesn't obligate me to
>> top it off between oil changes.
>
> Actually, I'm pretty sure it does. You are required to properly
> maintain the vehicle. Checking and adding oil is routine maintenance.
> Read your owners manual.
>
> Much better that you insist they document oil consumption by topping
> it off and having you drive it for 1000 miles. If it takes more than
> a quart to bring it back up to full, then your consumption exceeds the
> limits of normal and repair is needed.
>
>
Well, that's what I did - I got them to do an oil change and documented the
miles. One thing they found was that the washer on the oil drain plug was
incorrect - a thin substitute for the thicker Honda part was in place. I
guess one of the other oil change places I took the van to put the wrong one
back on. I don't know if this could have had any role in the oil loss...

Be

BE wrote:
>
> >
> > Much better that you insist they document oil consumption by topping
> > it off and having you drive it for 1000 miles. If it takes more than
> > a quart to bring it back up to full, then your consumption exceeds the
> > limits of normal and repair is needed.
> >
> >
> Well, that's what I did - I got them to do an oil change and documented
> the miles. One thing they found was that the washer on the oil drain plug
> was incorrect - a thin substitute for the thicker Honda part was in place.
> I guess one of the other oil change places I took the van to put the
> wrong one back on. I don't know if this could have had any role in the
> oil loss...

Do you see oil drips where you park, e.g., garage, driveway, etc.?

Eric

On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 22:04:58 GMT, BE <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

>> Much better that you insist they document oil consumption by topping
>> it off and having you drive it for 1000 miles. If it takes more than
>> a quart to bring it back up to full, then your consumption exceeds the
>> limits of normal and repair is needed.
>>
>>
>Well, that's what I did - I got them to do an oil change and documented the
>miles. One thing they found was that the washer on the oil drain plug was
>incorrect - a thin substitute for the thicker Honda part was in place. I
>guess one of the other oil change places I took the van to put the wrong one
>back on. I don't know if this could have had any role in the oil loss...

An incorrect washer might cause a leak problem but won't change oil
consumption. you would have to be making a huge mess for a leak to
cause measurable oil loss. Be aware that the correct washer is called
a crush washer because it is crushed when installed and should be
thinner when removed than before it was installed. That is why it
should be replaced each time.

If I understand correctly, the dealer has measured and acknowledged
that your consumption is greater than 1 qt./1000 mi. Hopefully you
have this documented in writing. If the dealer does acknowledge that
the engine needs repair, insist on talking to the Honda rep. The 1000
mile standard is barely justifiable as it is. Even being near it
should merit at least consideration for a warranty claim. If you are
over it, even by just a little, they should fix it.

On 6/3/06 10:04 AM, in article ne8382dqfnoql35i86mjbhdbkmd4amckh2@4ax.com,
"Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 22:04:58 GMT, BE <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>>> Much better that you insist they document oil consumption by topping
>>> it off and having you drive it for 1000 miles. If it takes more than
>>> a quart to bring it back up to full, then your consumption exceeds the
>>> limits of normal and repair is needed.
>>>
>>>
>> Well, that's what I did - I got them to do an oil change and documented the
>> miles. One thing they found was that the washer on the oil drain plug was
>> incorrect - a thin substitute for the thicker Honda part was in place. I
>> guess one of the other oil change places I took the van to put the wrong one
>> back on. I don't know if this could have had any role in the oil loss...
>
> An incorrect washer might cause a leak problem but won't change oil
> consumption. you would have to be making a huge mess for a leak to
> cause measurable oil loss. Be aware that the correct washer is called
> a crush washer because it is crushed when installed and should be
> thinner when removed than before it was installed. That is why it
> should be replaced each time.
>
> If I understand correctly, the dealer has measured and acknowledged
> that your consumption is greater than 1 qt./1000 mi. Hopefully you
> have this documented in writing. If the dealer does acknowledge that
> the engine needs repair, insist on talking to the Honda rep. The 1000
> mile standard is barely justifiable as it is. Even being near it
> should merit at least consideration for a warranty claim. If you are
> over it, even by just a little, they should fix it.
>
The mileage calculation of 900 miles per quart was made by me, therefore it
is not trusted.

Be

On 6/3/06 1:36 AM, in article 44812DEE.6F4B9642@spam.now, "Eric"
<say.no@spam.now> wrote:

> BE wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Much better that you insist they document oil consumption by topping
>>> it off and having you drive it for 1000 miles. If it takes more than
>>> a quart to bring it back up to full, then your consumption exceeds the
>>> limits of normal and repair is needed.
>>>
>>>
>> Well, that's what I did - I got them to do an oil change and documented
>> the miles. One thing they found was that the washer on the oil drain plug
>> was incorrect - a thin substitute for the thicker Honda part was in place.
>> I guess one of the other oil change places I took the van to put the
>> wrong one back on. I don't know if this could have had any role in the
>> oil loss...
>
> Do you see oil drips where you park, e.g., garage, driveway, etc.?
>
> Eric

No drips anywhere. We have a new, clean garage floor (since 2005) that has
not a drop upon it.

Be

On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 22:27:30 GMT, BE <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

>On 6/3/06 10:04 AM, in article ne8382dqfnoql35i86mjbhdbkmd4amckh2@4ax.com,
>"Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 22:04:58 GMT, BE <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Much better that you insist they document oil consumption by topping
>>>> it off and having you drive it for 1000 miles. If it takes more than
>>>> a quart to bring it back up to full, then your consumption exceeds the
>>>> limits of normal and repair is needed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Well, that's what I did - I got them to do an oil change and documented the
>>> miles. One thing they found was that the washer on the oil drain plug was
>>> incorrect - a thin substitute for the thicker Honda part was in place. I
>>> guess one of the other oil change places I took the van to put the wrong one
>>> back on. I don't know if this could have had any role in the oil loss...
>>
>> An incorrect washer might cause a leak problem but won't change oil
>> consumption. you would have to be making a huge mess for a leak to
>> cause measurable oil loss. Be aware that the correct washer is called
>> a crush washer because it is crushed when installed and should be
>> thinner when removed than before it was installed. That is why it
>> should be replaced each time.
>>
>> If I understand correctly, the dealer has measured and acknowledged
>> that your consumption is greater than 1 qt./1000 mi. Hopefully you
>> have this documented in writing. If the dealer does acknowledge that
>> the engine needs repair, insist on talking to the Honda rep. The 1000
>> mile standard is barely justifiable as it is. Even being near it
>> should merit at least consideration for a warranty claim. If you are
>> over it, even by just a little, they should fix it.
>>
>The mileage calculation of 900 miles per quart was made by me, therefore it
>is not trusted.
>
>Be

Well, then they have to measure it. Ask them how they want to do
that. In the mean time make sure they document that the customer has
reported oil consumption greater than 1qt. per 1000 miles.

On Sat, 03 Jun 2006 15:04:37 GMT, Gordon McGrew
<RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote:
>The 1000 mile standard is barely justifiable as it is.

Can the car really meet modern clean air standards burning oil like
that?

My old Alfa Romeo required a quart every couple of fill-ups, but that
was a design "feature" described in the manual.

And we won't even talk about the 1960's two-cycle Saabs where you just
poured the quart right into the gas tank!

J.