Honda Car Forum

In article <C071962A.4B2E4%n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net>, BE
<n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> How much do I drive in a couple months? Well, here's the math. The car is
> one-owner and has been mine for 58 months. It has 41000 miles. That's a
> shade less than 707 miles per month.... Not an amount that should scare me
> into checking it weekly, at least not (in my opinion) when a car with
> Honda's good reputation behind it has less miles on it than some people
> drive in 18 months.
>
> Be
>

Be,
It's my guess that the the rings are starting to wear. A compression check
during the next scheduled oil change service should reveal any serious
problems related to the rings. You may also want to have a tune-up in case
the valves, timing, etc need to be adjusted. If you have a oil change and
the oil becomes black within two weeks--that could be a sign of a bad head
gasket. I advise you to check the oil about once a week in order to check
the level and the color of the oil. Keep a record of the results.
Jason

--
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We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

Jason wrote:
> In article <xL23g.184$ud.158@trndny03>, "MLD" <MLD@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>>"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
>>news4WdnbRwdsvVR9bZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@sedona.net ...
>>
>>>"MLD" <MLD@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>
>>news:ZmQ2g.4048$cc.137@trndny05...
>>
>>>>"BE" <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>>>news:C070EA45.4B250%n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.n et...
>>>>
>>>>>My 2001 Odyssey is consuming oil at what I think is an alarming rate. A
>>>>>couple months ago the oil light came on - I immediately shut the
>>
>>vehicle
>>
>>>>off
>>>>
>>>>>and ended up adding 3 quarts of oil. I checked it again the other day
>>
>>and
>>
>>>>>had to add half a quart.
>>>>>
>>>>>This engine only has 41K miles. It does not put out blue smoke; there
>>
>>are
>>
>>>>no
>>>>
>>>>>oil spots in our garage. Don't tell me that this can possibly be normal
>>>>>consumption??? Where could this oil be going?
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>Be
>>>>
>>>>Daughter's Civic, 55,000 miles and just out of warranty, had the same
>>>>problem--oil didn't show up on the dip stick. Filled the oil to the
>>
>>full
>>
>>>>mark and within 250 mi it was below the dip stick again. Because it was
>>>>so
>>>>severe an oil loss, the Dealer got Honda's OK to look for the problem
>>
>>with
>>
>>>>only parts to be charged. Found some cracked carbon valve seals,
>>
>>replaced
>>
>>>>them and put things back together again. Same oil loss recurred. Honda
>>>>authorized as complete an engine teardown as needed to find and resolve
>>>>with
>>>>no further $$$ charged. Tore the engine down and found some bad piston
>>>>rings; replaced them all and the oil loss problem went away. So she
>>>>basically ended up with a rebuilt engine *zero timed* for very little
>>
>>cost
>>
>>>>to her. Honda's response to the problem was excellent, obviously their
>>>>concern and motivation was "How many more are there out there like this,
>>>>is
>>>>there something about 55,000 mi. in this engine that we've got to worry
>>>>about and if so, what. She got the car new and was putting about
>>
>>400-500
>>
>>>>mi
>>>>a week on it so it was probably one of the fleet leaders in mileage.
>>>>MLD
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Do you know if a compression test had been done prior to teardown and if
>>
>>the
>>
>>>rings were compression or oil control? I'd expect a dealer to do at least
>>>one compression test (that probably came out okay enough) and swallow hard
>>
>>a
>>
>>>couple times before tearing an engine down.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>
>>
>>Don't know what the dealer did to troubleshoot--In fact, before they even
>>started doing anything, they actually drained and refilled the oil and sent
>>her on her way. After the 250 mi and no oil on the dip stick they became
>>believers. Obviously, the cracked (broken) rings were not associated with
>>compression, the dealer wasn't that bad. Honda responded as well as they
>>did because 55,000 miles is relatively low for their engine and the need to
>>know if this was "one of a kind" or a symptom of "what was to come" from
>>that family. BTW, she ended up with over 200,000 miles before giving the
>>car up.
>>MLD
>
>
> MLD,
> In most cases, if there is a defective ring--it can be detected by a
> compression check. I was surprised that the Honda mechanic did not conduct
> a compression check prior to a teardown of the engine.

if they were an experienced professional, they'd know that a broken top
ring makes the most difference to compression [and little difference to
oil consumption], the second ring, much less to compression [and a
reasonable difference to oil consumption], and the oil control rings,
none at all to compression, [but a whole ship-load to oil consumption].
since oil loss is the the problem, and lack of compression apparently
not, what conclusions do you draw here about the efficacy of a
compression test here jason? hint: the professional mechanics' actions
here should give you a clue.

> Perhaps the
> mechanic conducted a compression check and done the teardown of the engine
> as a direct result of the compression check test results.

dude, compression can vary quite a lot from cylinder to cylinder, and
the engine still be perfectly serviceable with little oil consumption.
i respectfully suggest you either get some training and experience under
your belt OR you stick to topics you actually /do/ know about. thanks.

> Jason
>

jim beam wrote:
>
> Jason wrote:
> > In article <xL23g.184$ud.158@trndny03>, "MLD" <MLD@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
> >>news4WdnbRwdsvVR9bZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@sedona.net ...
> >>
> >>>"MLD" <MLD@verizon.net> wrote in message
> >>
> >>news:ZmQ2g.4048$cc.137@trndny05...
> >>
> >>>>"BE" <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> >>>>news:C070EA45.4B250%n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.n et...
> >>>>
> >>>>>My 2001 Odyssey is consuming oil at what I think is an alarming rate. A
> >>>>>couple months ago the oil light came on - I immediately shut the
> >>
> >>vehicle
> >>
> >>>>off
> >>>>
> >>>>>and ended up adding 3 quarts of oil. I checked it again the other day
> >>
> >>and
> >>
> >>>>>had to add half a quart.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>This engine only has 41K miles. It does not put out blue smoke; there
> >>
> >>are
> >>
> >>>>no
> >>>>
> >>>>>oil spots in our garage. Don't tell me that this can possibly be normal
> >>>>>consumption??? Where could this oil be going?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Thanks,
> >>>>>Be
> >>>>
> >>>>Daughter's Civic, 55,000 miles and just out of warranty, had the same
> >>>>problem--oil didn't show up on the dip stick. Filled the oil to the
> >>
> >>full
> >>
> >>>>mark and within 250 mi it was below the dip stick again. Because it was
> >>>>so
> >>>>severe an oil loss, the Dealer got Honda's OK to look for the problem
> >>
> >>with
> >>
> >>>>only parts to be charged. Found some cracked carbon valve seals,
> >>
> >>replaced
> >>
> >>>>them and put things back together again. Same oil loss recurred. Honda
> >>>>authorized as complete an engine teardown as needed to find and resolve
> >>>>with
> >>>>no further $$$ charged. Tore the engine down and found some bad piston
> >>>>rings; replaced them all and the oil loss problem went away. So she
> >>>>basically ended up with a rebuilt engine *zero timed* for very little
> >>
> >>cost
> >>
> >>>>to her. Honda's response to the problem was excellent, obviously their
> >>>>concern and motivation was "How many more are there out there like this,
> >>>>is
> >>>>there something about 55,000 mi. in this engine that we've got to worry
> >>>>about and if so, what. She got the car new and was putting about
> >>
> >>400-500
> >>
> >>>>mi
> >>>>a week on it so it was probably one of the fleet leaders in mileage.
> >>>>MLD
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Do you know if a compression test had been done prior to teardown and if
> >>
> >>the
> >>
> >>>rings were compression or oil control? I'd expect a dealer to do at least
> >>>one compression test (that probably came out okay enough) and swallow hard
> >>
> >>a
> >>
> >>>couple times before tearing an engine down.
> >>>
> >>>Mike
> >>>
> >>
> >>Don't know what the dealer did to troubleshoot--In fact, before they even
> >>started doing anything, they actually drained and refilled the oil and sent
> >>her on her way. After the 250 mi and no oil on the dip stick they became
> >>believers. Obviously, the cracked (broken) rings were not associated with
> >>compression, the dealer wasn't that bad. Honda responded as well as they
> >>did because 55,000 miles is relatively low for their engine and the need to
> >>know if this was "one of a kind" or a symptom of "what was to come" from
> >>that family. BTW, she ended up with over 200,000 miles before giving the
> >>car up.
> >>MLD
> >
> >
> > MLD,
> > In most cases, if there is a defective ring--it can be detected by a
> > compression check. I was surprised that the Honda mechanic did not conduct
> > a compression check prior to a teardown of the engine.
>
> if they were an experienced professional, they'd know that a broken top
> ring makes the most difference to compression [and little difference to
> oil consumption], the second ring, much less to compression [and a
> reasonable difference to oil consumption], and the oil control rings,
> none at all to compression, [but a whole ship-load to oil consumption].
> since oil loss is the the problem, and lack of compression apparently
> not, what conclusions do you draw here about the efficacy of a
> compression test here jason? hint: the professional mechanics' actions
> here should give you a clue.
>
> > Perhaps the
> > mechanic conducted a compression check and done the teardown of the engine
> > as a direct result of the compression check test results.
>
> dude, compression can vary quite a lot from cylinder to cylinder, and
> the engine still be perfectly serviceable with little oil consumption.
> i respectfully suggest you either get some training and experience under
> your belt OR you stick to topics you actually /do/ know about. thanks.
>
>


Uh, all ring sets contribute to compression AND oil control.

As an example, a couple of years ago I inherited an early 1980's Mazda
B2000 P/U with about 160K miles on the odometer that was running lousy
along with oil control problems. The reason, three pistons had broken
compression rings.

In real life, cause and effect can vary widely vs. the published word...

JT

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>Jason wrote:
>>
>>>In article <xL23g.184$ud.158@trndny03>, "MLD" <MLD@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
>>>>news4WdnbRwdsvVR9bZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@sedona.n et...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"MLD" <MLD@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>news:ZmQ2g.4048$cc.137@trndny05...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>"BE" <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:C070EA45.4B250%n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal .net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>My 2001 Odyssey is consuming oil at what I think is an alarming rate. A
>>>>>>>couple months ago the oil light came on - I immediately shut the
>>>>
>>>>vehicle
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>off
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>and ended up adding 3 quarts of oil. I checked it again the other day
>>>>
>>>>and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>had to add half a quart.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This engine only has 41K miles. It does not put out blue smoke; there
>>>>
>>>>are
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>no
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>oil spots in our garage. Don't tell me that this can possibly be normal
>>>>>>>consumption??? Where could this oil be going?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>Be
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Daughter's Civic, 55,000 miles and just out of warranty, had the same
>>>>>>problem--oil didn't show up on the dip stick. Filled the oil to the
>>>>
>>>>full
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>mark and within 250 mi it was below the dip stick again. Because it was
>>>>>>so
>>>>>>severe an oil loss, the Dealer got Honda's OK to look for the problem
>>>>
>>>>with
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>only parts to be charged. Found some cracked carbon valve seals,
>>>>
>>>>replaced
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>them and put things back together again. Same oil loss recurred. Honda
>>>>>>authorized as complete an engine teardown as needed to find and resolve
>>>>>>with
>>>>>>no further $$$ charged. Tore the engine down and found some bad piston
>>>>>>rings; replaced them all and the oil loss problem went away. So she
>>>>>>basically ended up with a rebuilt engine *zero timed* for very little
>>>>
>>>>cost
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>to her. Honda's response to the problem was excellent, obviously their
>>>>>>concern and motivation was "How many more are there out there like this,
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>there something about 55,000 mi. in this engine that we've got to worry
>>>>>>about and if so, what. She got the car new and was putting about
>>>>
>>>>400-500
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>mi
>>>>>>a week on it so it was probably one of the fleet leaders in mileage.
>>>>>>MLD
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Do you know if a compression test had been done prior to teardown and if
>>>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>rings were compression or oil control? I'd expect a dealer to do at least
>>>>>one compression test (that probably came out okay enough) and swallow hard
>>>>
>>>>a
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>couple times before tearing an engine down.
>>>>>
>>>>>Mike
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Don't know what the dealer did to troubleshoot--In fact, before they even
>>>>started doing anything, they actually drained and refilled the oil and sent
>>>>her on her way. After the 250 mi and no oil on the dip stick they became
>>>>believers. Obviously, the cracked (broken) rings were not associated with
>>>>compression, the dealer wasn't that bad. Honda responded as well as they
>>>>did because 55,000 miles is relatively low for their engine and the need to
>>>>know if this was "one of a kind" or a symptom of "what was to come" from
>>>>that family. BTW, she ended up with over 200,000 miles before giving the
>>>>car up.
>>>>MLD
>>>
>>>
>>>MLD,
>>>In most cases, if there is a defective ring--it can be detected by a
>>>compression check. I was surprised that the Honda mechanic did not conduct
>>>a compression check prior to a teardown of the engine.
>>
>>if they were an experienced professional, they'd know that a broken top
>>ring makes the most difference to compression [and little difference to
>>oil consumption], the second ring, much less to compression [and a
>>reasonable difference to oil consumption], and the oil control rings,
>>none at all to compression, [but a whole ship-load to oil consumption].
>> since oil loss is the the problem, and lack of compression apparently
>>not, what conclusions do you draw here about the efficacy of a
>>compression test here jason? hint: the professional mechanics' actions
>>here should give you a clue.
>>
>>
>>>Perhaps the
>>>mechanic conducted a compression check and done the teardown of the engine
>>>as a direct result of the compression check test results.
>>
>>dude, compression can vary quite a lot from cylinder to cylinder, and
>>the engine still be perfectly serviceable with little oil consumption.
>>i respectfully suggest you either get some training and experience under
>>your belt OR you stick to topics you actually /do/ know about. thanks.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Uh, all ring sets contribute to compression AND oil control.
>
> As an example, a couple of years ago I inherited an early 1980's Mazda
> B2000 P/U with about 160K miles on the odometer that was running lousy
> along with oil control problems. The reason, three pistons had broken
> compression rings.
>
> In real life, cause and effect can vary widely vs. the published word...
>
> JT

uh, re-read my post. the extent of compression and oil consumpton
effect varies by ring.

jim beam wrote:
>
> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >
> > jim beam wrote:
> >
> >>Jason wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article <xL23g.184$ud.158@trndny03>, "MLD" <MLD@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
> >>>>news4WdnbRwdsvVR9bZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@sedona.n et...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>"MLD" <MLD@verizon.net> wrote in message
> >>>>
> >>>>news:ZmQ2g.4048$cc.137@trndny05...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>"BE" <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> >>>>>>news:C070EA45.4B250%n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal .net...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>My 2001 Odyssey is consuming oil at what I think is an alarming rate. A
> >>>>>>>couple months ago the oil light came on - I immediately shut the
> >>>>
> >>>>vehicle
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>off
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>and ended up adding 3 quarts of oil. I checked it again the other day
> >>>>
> >>>>and
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>had to add half a quart.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>This engine only has 41K miles. It does not put out blue smoke; there
> >>>>
> >>>>are
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>no
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>oil spots in our garage. Don't tell me that this can possibly be normal
> >>>>>>>consumption??? Where could this oil be going?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Thanks,
> >>>>>>>Be
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Daughter's Civic, 55,000 miles and just out of warranty, had the same
> >>>>>>problem--oil didn't show up on the dip stick. Filled the oil to the
> >>>>
> >>>>full
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>mark and within 250 mi it was below the dip stick again. Because it was
> >>>>>>so
> >>>>>>severe an oil loss, the Dealer got Honda's OK to look for the problem
> >>>>
> >>>>with
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>only parts to be charged. Found some cracked carbon valve seals,
> >>>>
> >>>>replaced
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>them and put things back together again. Same oil loss recurred. Honda
> >>>>>>authorized as complete an engine teardown as needed to find and resolve
> >>>>>>with
> >>>>>>no further $$$ charged. Tore the engine down and found some bad piston
> >>>>>>rings; replaced them all and the oil loss problem went away. So she
> >>>>>>basically ended up with a rebuilt engine *zero timed* for very little
> >>>>
> >>>>cost
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>to her. Honda's response to the problem was excellent, obviously their
> >>>>>>concern and motivation was "How many more are there out there like this,
> >>>>>>is
> >>>>>>there something about 55,000 mi. in this engine that we've got to worry
> >>>>>>about and if so, what. She got the car new and was putting about
> >>>>
> >>>>400-500
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>mi
> >>>>>>a week on it so it was probably one of the fleet leaders in mileage.
> >>>>>>MLD
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Do you know if a compression test had been done prior to teardown and if
> >>>>
> >>>>the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>rings were compression or oil control? I'd expect a dealer to do at least
> >>>>>one compression test (that probably came out okay enough) and swallow hard
> >>>>
> >>>>a
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>couple times before tearing an engine down.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Mike
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Don't know what the dealer did to troubleshoot--In fact, before they even
> >>>>started doing anything, they actually drained and refilled the oil and sent
> >>>>her on her way. After the 250 mi and no oil on the dip stick they became
> >>>>believers. Obviously, the cracked (broken) rings were not associated with
> >>>>compression, the dealer wasn't that bad. Honda responded as well as they
> >>>>did because 55,000 miles is relatively low for their engine and the need to
> >>>>know if this was "one of a kind" or a symptom of "what was to come" from
> >>>>that family. BTW, she ended up with over 200,000 miles before giving the
> >>>>car up.
> >>>>MLD
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>MLD,
> >>>In most cases, if there is a defective ring--it can be detected by a
> >>>compression check. I was surprised that the Honda mechanic did not conduct
> >>>a compression check prior to a teardown of the engine.
> >>
> >>if they were an experienced professional, they'd know that a broken top
> >>ring makes the most difference to compression [and little difference to
> >>oil consumption], the second ring, much less to compression [and a
> >>reasonable difference to oil consumption], and the oil control rings,
> >>none at all to compression, [but a whole ship-load to oil consumption].
> >> since oil loss is the the problem, and lack of compression apparently
> >>not, what conclusions do you draw here about the efficacy of a
> >>compression test here jason? hint: the professional mechanics' actions
> >>here should give you a clue.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Perhaps the
> >>>mechanic conducted a compression check and done the teardown of the engine
> >>>as a direct result of the compression check test results.
> >>
> >>dude, compression can vary quite a lot from cylinder to cylinder, and
> >>the engine still be perfectly serviceable with little oil consumption.
> >>i respectfully suggest you either get some training and experience under
> >>your belt OR you stick to topics you actually /do/ know about. thanks.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > Uh, all ring sets contribute to compression AND oil control.
> >
> > As an example, a couple of years ago I inherited an early 1980's Mazda
> > B2000 P/U with about 160K miles on the odometer that was running lousy
> > along with oil control problems. The reason, three pistons had broken
> > compression rings.
> >
> > In real life, cause and effect can vary widely vs. the published word...
> >
> > JT
>
> uh, re-read my post. the extent of compression and oil consumpton
> effect varies by ring.


Uh, you clearly stated that a compression ring makes little difference
as relates to oil control. In fact, any broken compression ring will
substantially affect oil control.

Additionally, broken oil or 2nd compression rings are rare since the
malady is often caused by incorrect timing (or some other direct factor)
that leads to detonation which is the chief culprit as to ring breakage.

JT

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
> jim beam wrote:
>
>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jason wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In article <xL23g.184$ud.158@trndny03>, "MLD" <MLD@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>news4WdnbRwdsvVR9bZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@sedona .net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"MLD" <MLD@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>>news:ZmQ2g.4048$cc.137@trndny05...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"BE" <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:C070EA45.4B250%n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglob al.net...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>My 2001 Odyssey is consuming oil at what I think is an alarming rate. A
>>>>>>>>>couple months ago the oil light came on - I immediately shut the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>vehicle
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>off
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>and ended up adding 3 quarts of oil. I checked it again the other day
>>>>>>
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>had to add half a quart.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>This engine only has 41K miles. It does not put out blue smoke; there
>>>>>>
>>>>>>are
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>no
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>oil spots in our garage. Don't tell me that this can possibly be normal
>>>>>>>>>consumption??? Where could this oil be going?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>Be
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Daughter's Civic, 55,000 miles and just out of warranty, had the same
>>>>>>>>problem--oil didn't show up on the dip stick. Filled the oil to the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>full
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>mark and within 250 mi it was below the dip stick again. Because it was
>>>>>>>>so
>>>>>>>>severe an oil loss, the Dealer got Honda's OK to look for the problem
>>>>>>
>>>>>>with
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>only parts to be charged. Found some cracked carbon valve seals,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>replaced
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>them and put things back together again. Same oil loss recurred. Honda
>>>>>>>>authorized as complete an engine teardown as needed to find and resolve
>>>>>>>>with
>>>>>>>>no further $$$ charged. Tore the engine down and found some bad piston
>>>>>>>>rings; replaced them all and the oil loss problem went away. So she
>>>>>>>>basically ended up with a rebuilt engine *zero timed* for very little
>>>>>>
>>>>>>cost
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>to her. Honda's response to the problem was excellent, obviously their
>>>>>>>>concern and motivation was "How many more are there out there like this,
>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>there something about 55,000 mi. in this engine that we've got to worry
>>>>>>>>about and if so, what. She got the car new and was putting about
>>>>>>
>>>>>>400-500
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>mi
>>>>>>>>a week on it so it was probably one of the fleet leaders in mileage.
>>>>>>>>MLD
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Do you know if a compression test had been done prior to teardown and if
>>>>>>
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>rings were compression or oil control? I'd expect a dealer to do at least
>>>>>>>one compression test (that probably came out okay enough) and swallow hard
>>>>>>
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>couple times before tearing an engine down.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Don't know what the dealer did to troubleshoot--In fact, before they even
>>>>>>started doing anything, they actually drained and refilled the oil and sent
>>>>>>her on her way. After the 250 mi and no oil on the dip stick they became
>>>>>>believers. Obviously, the cracked (broken) rings were not associated with
>>>>>>compression, the dealer wasn't that bad. Honda responded as well as they
>>>>>>did because 55,000 miles is relatively low for their engine and the need to
>>>>>>know if this was "one of a kind" or a symptom of "what was to come" from
>>>>>>that family. BTW, she ended up with over 200,000 miles before giving the
>>>>>>car up.
>>>>>>MLD
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>MLD,
>>>>>In most cases, if there is a defective ring--it can be detected by a
>>>>>compression check. I was surprised that the Honda mechanic did not conduct
>>>>>a compression check prior to a teardown of the engine.
>>>>
>>>>if they were an experienced professional, they'd know that a broken top
>>>>ring makes the most difference to compression [and little difference to
>>>>oil consumption], the second ring, much less to compression [and a
>>>>reasonable difference to oil consumption], and the oil control rings,
>>>>none at all to compression, [but a whole ship-load to oil consumption].
>>>> since oil loss is the the problem, and lack of compression apparently
>>>>not, what conclusions do you draw here about the efficacy of a
>>>>compression test here jason? hint: the professional mechanics' actions
>>>>here should give you a clue.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Perhaps the
>>>>>mechanic conducted a compression check and done the teardown of the engine
>>>>>as a direct result of the compression check test results.
>>>>
>>>>dude, compression can vary quite a lot from cylinder to cylinder, and
>>>>the engine still be perfectly serviceable with little oil consumption.
>>>>i respectfully suggest you either get some training and experience under
>>>>your belt OR you stick to topics you actually /do/ know about. thanks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Uh, all ring sets contribute to compression AND oil control.
>>>
>>>As an example, a couple of years ago I inherited an early 1980's Mazda
>>>B2000 P/U with about 160K miles on the odometer that was running lousy
>>>along with oil control problems. The reason, three pistons had broken
>>>compression rings.
>>>
>>>In real life, cause and effect can vary widely vs. the published word...
>>>
>>>JT
>>
>>uh, re-read my post. the extent of compression and oil consumpton
>>effect varies by ring.
>
>
>
> Uh, you clearly stated that a compression ring makes little difference
> as relates to oil control.

there are 3 rings: top and middle compression, bottom oil control.
re-read what i said.

> In fact, any broken compression ring will
> substantially affect oil control.

out of the 3, the top ring has the least effect!

>
> Additionally, broken oil or 2nd compression rings are rare since the
> malady is often caused by incorrect timing (or some other direct factor)
> that leads to detonation which is the chief culprit as to ring breakage.

yes, it's usually true that the top ring goes, but it's not always the
case. and yes, it can increase oil consumption, but it's not as bad as
the other rings. re-read what i said.

>
> JT

"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpster@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote in message
news:444ED583.5DF81047@GrumpyvilleNOT.com...

> Additionally, broken oil or 2nd compression rings are rare since the
> malady is often caused by incorrect timing (or some other direct factor)
> that leads to detonation which is the chief culprit as to ring breakage.
>
That agrees fairly well with my limited experience. I rebuilt an engine in a
1970 Volvo I had that pinged badly and smoked a lot (no catalytic
converter). It had broken first compression rings in every cylinder and a
broken second compression ring in one cylinder.

Mike

Michael Pardee wrote:
>
> "Grumpy AuContraire" <Grumpster@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote in message
> news:444ED583.5DF81047@GrumpyvilleNOT.com...
>
> > Additionally, broken oil or 2nd compression rings are rare since the
> > malady is often caused by incorrect timing (or some other direct factor)
> > that leads to detonation which is the chief culprit as to ring breakage.
> >
> That agrees fairly well with my limited experience. I rebuilt an engine in a
> 1970 Volvo I had that pinged badly and smoked a lot (no catalytic
> converter). It had broken first compression rings in every cylinder and a
> broken second compression ring in one cylinder.
>
> Mike



Back in the early 1980's, I bought a friend's 1976 Honda Civic CVCC and
drove it for about a year. It pinged fairly loud on hills and hard
acceleration but luck was with me as I finally adjusted the timing to
get rid of the knock. The car ran flawlessly all the way to the 170K
(miles) mark when the car rotted out from under me...

<G>

JT

(Who wonders what adventures may lurk with his "new to me" '83 Civic FE)

In article <B9KdnaoDCp6iRNPZnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@speakeasy.net> , jim beam
<nospam@example.net> wrote:

> Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >
> > jim beam wrote:
> >
> >>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >>
> >>>jim beam wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Jason wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>In article <xL23g.184$ud.158@trndny03>, "MLD" <MLD@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>news4WdnbRwdsvVR9bZnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@sedona .net...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>"MLD" <MLD@verizon.net> wrote in message
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>news:ZmQ2g.4048$cc.137@trndny05...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>"BE" <n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>news:C070EA45.4B250%n3wsr3ad3r_|@|_sbcglob al.net...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>My 2001 Odyssey is consuming oil at what I think is an alarming
rate. A
> >>>>>>>>>couple months ago the oil light came on - I immediately shut the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>vehicle
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>off
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>and ended up adding 3 quarts of oil. I checked it again the other day
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>and
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>had to add half a quart.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>This engine only has 41K miles. It does not put out blue smoke; there
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>are
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>no
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>oil spots in our garage. Don't tell me that this can possibly
be normal
> >>>>>>>>>consumption??? Where could this oil be going?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>Be
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Daughter's Civic, 55,000 miles and just out of warranty, had the same
> >>>>>>>>problem--oil didn't show up on the dip stick. Filled the oil to the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>full
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>mark and within 250 mi it was below the dip stick again.
Because it was
> >>>>>>>>so
> >>>>>>>>severe an oil loss, the Dealer got Honda's OK to look for the problem
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>with
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>only parts to be charged. Found some cracked carbon valve seals,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>replaced
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>them and put things back together again. Same oil loss
recurred. Honda
> >>>>>>>>authorized as complete an engine teardown as needed to find and
resolve
> >>>>>>>>with
> >>>>>>>>no further $$$ charged. Tore the engine down and found some bad
piston
> >>>>>>>>rings; replaced them all and the oil loss problem went away. So she
> >>>>>>>>basically ended up with a rebuilt engine *zero timed* for very little
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>cost
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>to her. Honda's response to the problem was excellent,
obviously their
> >>>>>>>>concern and motivation was "How many more are there out there
like this,
> >>>>>>>>is
> >>>>>>>>there something about 55,000 mi. in this engine that we've got
to worry
> >>>>>>>>about and if so, what. She got the car new and was putting about
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>400-500
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>mi
> >>>>>>>>a week on it so it was probably one of the fleet leaders in mileage.
> >>>>>>>>MLD
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Do you know if a compression test had been done prior to teardown
and if
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>rings were compression or oil control? I'd expect a dealer to do
at least
> >>>>>>>one compression test (that probably came out okay enough) and
swallow hard
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>a
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>couple times before tearing an engine down.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Mike
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Don't know what the dealer did to troubleshoot--In fact, before
they even
> >>>>>>started doing anything, they actually drained and refilled the oil
and sent
> >>>>>>her on her way. After the 250 mi and no oil on the dip stick
they became
> >>>>>>believers. Obviously, the cracked (broken) rings were not
associated with
> >>>>>>compression, the dealer wasn't that bad. Honda responded as well
as they
> >>>>>>did because 55,000 miles is relatively low for their engine and
the need to
> >>>>>>know if this was "one of a kind" or a symptom of "what was to come" from
> >>>>>>that family. BTW, she ended up with over 200,000 miles before
giving the
> >>>>>>car up.
> >>>>>>MLD
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>MLD,
> >>>>>In most cases, if there is a defective ring--it can be detected by a
> >>>>>compression check. I was surprised that the Honda mechanic did not
conduct
> >>>>>a compression check prior to a teardown of the engine.
> >>>>
> >>>>if they were an experienced professional, they'd know that a broken top
> >>>>ring makes the most difference to compression [and little difference to
> >>>>oil consumption], the second ring, much less to compression [and a
> >>>>reasonable difference to oil consumption], and the oil control rings,
> >>>>none at all to compression, [but a whole ship-load to oil consumption].
> >>>> since oil loss is the the problem, and lack of compression apparently
> >>>>not, what conclusions do you draw here about the efficacy of a
> >>>>compression test here jason? hint: the professional mechanics' actions
> >>>>here should give you a clue.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Perhaps the
> >>>>>mechanic conducted a compression check and done the teardown of the
engine
> >>>>>as a direct result of the compression check test results.
> >>>>
> >>>>dude, compression can vary quite a lot from cylinder to cylinder, and
> >>>>the engine still be perfectly serviceable with little oil consumption.
> >>>>i respectfully suggest you either get some training and experience under
> >>>>your belt OR you stick to topics you actually /do/ know about. thanks.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Uh, all ring sets contribute to compression AND oil control.
> >>>
> >>>As an example, a couple of years ago I inherited an early 1980's Mazda
> >>>B2000 P/U with about 160K miles on the odometer that was running lousy
> >>>along with oil control problems. The reason, three pistons had broken
> >>>compression rings.
> >>>
> >>>In real life, cause and effect can vary widely vs. the published word...
> >>>
> >>>JT
> >>
> >>uh, re-read my post. the extent of compression and oil consumpton
> >>effect varies by ring.
> >
> >
> >
> > Uh, you clearly stated that a compression ring makes little difference
> > as relates to oil control.
>
> there are 3 rings: top and middle compression, bottom oil control.
> re-read what i said.
>
> > In fact, any broken compression ring will
> > substantially affect oil control.
>
> out of the 3, the top ring has the least effect!
>
> >
> > Additionally, broken oil or 2nd compression rings are rare since the
> > malady is often caused by incorrect timing (or some other direct factor)
> > that leads to detonation which is the chief culprit as to ring breakage.
>
> yes, it's usually true that the top ring goes, but it's not always the
> case. and yes, it can increase oil consumption, but it's not as bad as
> the other rings. re-read what i said.
>
> >
> > JT

Jim,
I have a question for you. I was taught that the best method of detecting
ring problems was to conduct a compression check. Other than taking the
engine apart, are there now better methods of detecting ring problems? If
so, what are so methods?
Jason

--
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Jason wrote:

> I have a question for you. I was taught that the best method of detecting
> ring problems was to conduct a compression check. Other than taking the
> engine apart, are there now better methods of detecting ring problems? If
> so, what are so methods?

You could do a wet vs. dry compression test as well as a leak down test.

Eric