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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03 Apr 2006, 01:53 pm
Chuck
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Default 91 Civic Won't Start

I have a 91 Civic Wagon that ran great but one day just wouldn't start
anymore. I have spark at all plugs. I've dumped gas into the throtle
body while cranking and still not even a sputter. The timing belt is
intact and I checked that is hasn't jumped time. It uses oil, so I
disconnected the catalytic converter thinking it could be restricted, but
that made no difference. I just figure with spark and dumping gas in the
throttle body I'd at least get it to sputter, but not a thing. The ECU
blinks once when I turn the key to "on". I notice that the brake
indicator comes on when cranking. Any help will be greatly appreciated.


Chuck
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 03 Apr 2006, 02:08 pm
TeGGeR®
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Default Re: 91 Civic Won't Start

Chuck <chuck@westmichigan.net> wrote in news:saeYf.4904$Py4.1879@trnddc06:

> I have a 91 Civic Wagon that ran great but one day just wouldn't start
> anymore. I have spark at all plugs. I've dumped gas into the throtle
> body while cranking and still not even a sputter. The timing belt is
> intact and I checked that is hasn't jumped time. It uses oil, so I
> disconnected the catalytic converter thinking it could be restricted, but
> that made no difference. I just figure with spark and dumping gas in the
> throttle body I'd at least get it to sputter, but not a thing. The ECU
> blinks once when I turn the key to "on". I notice that the brake
> indicator comes on when cranking. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
>



Do you hear the fuel pump running when the key is first turned to ON but
not to START? This will coincide with the Check Engine light being on for
two seconds.

Have you looked into the throttle body while cranking to see if fuel is
actually being sprayed?

Have you tried to alleviate a *flooded* condition? Hold pedal to the floor,
then try cranking for a while.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 03 Apr 2006, 02:08 pm
TeGGeR®
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Default Re: 91 Civic Won't Start

Chuck <chuck@westmichigan.net> wrote in news:saeYf.4904$Py4.1879@trnddc06:

> I have a 91 Civic Wagon that ran great but one day just wouldn't start
> anymore. I have spark at all plugs. I've dumped gas into the throtle
> body while cranking and still not even a sputter. The timing belt is
> intact and I checked that is hasn't jumped time. It uses oil, so I
> disconnected the catalytic converter thinking it could be restricted, but
> that made no difference. I just figure with spark and dumping gas in the
> throttle body I'd at least get it to sputter, but not a thing. The ECU
> blinks once when I turn the key to "on". I notice that the brake
> indicator comes on when cranking. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
>
>




And what color is the spark you see? Blue? White? deep yellow or orange?

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 03 Apr 2006, 02:31 pm
Chuck
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Default Re: 91 Civic Won't Start

On 2006-04-03, TeGGeR® <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> Chuck <chuck@westmichigan.net> wrote in news:saeYf.4904$Py4.1879@trnddc06:
>
>> I have a 91 Civic Wagon that ran great but one day just wouldn't start
>> anymore. I have spark at all plugs. I've dumped gas into the throtle
>> body while cranking and still not even a sputter. The timing belt is
>> intact and I checked that is hasn't jumped time. It uses oil, so I
>> disconnected the catalytic converter thinking it could be restricted, but
>> that made no difference. I just figure with spark and dumping gas in the
>> throttle body I'd at least get it to sputter, but not a thing. The ECU
>> blinks once when I turn the key to "on". I notice that the brake
>> indicator comes on when cranking. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
>>

>
>
> Do you hear the fuel pump running when the key is first turned to ON but
> not to START? This will coincide with the Check Engine light being on for
> two seconds.
>


Yes, I hear this. I think it was your webpage that told about feeling
the relay for 3 clicks. I have these.

> Have you looked into the throttle body while cranking to see if fuel is
> actually being sprayed?
>

I don't see any fuel spray. I tried starting fluid and gas in the past
and get nothing, not even a sputter. They may not reach the cylinders
though with the car on jackstands the fuel may be draining the other
direction.

I guess I need to know what feeds the injectors. I've checked fuses.

> Have you tried to alleviate a *flooded* condition? Hold pedal to the floor,
> then try cranking for a while.
>

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 03 Apr 2006, 02:48 pm
Chuck
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 91 Civic Won't Start

On 2006-04-03, TeGGeR® <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> Chuck <chuck@westmichigan.net> wrote in news:saeYf.4904$Py4.1879@trnddc06:
>
>> I have a 91 Civic Wagon that ran great but one day just wouldn't start
>> anymore. I have spark at all plugs. I've dumped gas into the throtle
>> body while cranking and still not even a sputter. The timing belt is
>> intact and I checked that is hasn't jumped time. It uses oil, so I
>> disconnected the catalytic converter thinking it could be restricted, but
>> that made no difference. I just figure with spark and dumping gas in the
>> throttle body I'd at least get it to sputter, but not a thing. The ECU
>> blinks once when I turn the key to "on". I notice that the brake
>> indicator comes on when cranking. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
>>
>>

>
>
>
> And what color is the spark you see? Blue? White? deep yellow or orange?
>

It's a whiteish blue. The coil and cap have about 5000 miles on them.
The old coil still worked, but was damaged by a bad cap.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 03 Apr 2006, 03:27 pm
TeGGeR®
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Default Re: 91 Civic Won't Start

Chuck <chuck@westmichigan.net> wrote in
news:qKeYf.21678$fQ6.10582@trnddc03:


>>

> I don't see any fuel spray. I tried starting fluid and gas in the past
> and get nothing, not even a sputter. They may not reach the cylinders
> though with the car on jackstands the fuel may be draining the other
> direction.
>
> I guess I need to know what feeds the injectors. I've checked fuses.



If you have throttle-body injection, the injectors and the fuel pump all
get their power from termial 7 of the Main Relay.

No sputter at all is odd. With a good strong spark, you should be getting
*some* sort of reponse from the engine. Have you checked ignition timing
while cranking? Do you have the distributor somehow out of time 180
degrees? When was the timing belt changed last?


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 03 Apr 2006, 04:55 pm
Chuck
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Default Re: 91 Civic Won't Start

On 2006-04-03, TeGGeR® <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
> Chuck <chuck@westmichigan.net> wrote in
> news:qKeYf.21678$fQ6.10582@trnddc03:
>
>
>>>

>> I don't see any fuel spray. I tried starting fluid and gas in the past
>> and get nothing, not even a sputter. They may not reach the cylinders
>> though with the car on jackstands the fuel may be draining the other
>> direction.
>>
>> I guess I need to know what feeds the injectors. I've checked fuses.

>
>
> If you have throttle-body injection, the injectors and the fuel pump all
> get their power from termial 7 of the Main Relay.
>


I just checked the solder joints on the relay. They all *looked* fine.

> No sputter at all is odd. With a good strong spark, you should be getting
> *some* sort of reponse from the engine.


I just pulled all the plugs and checked for spark an its fine on all of
them. In fact, what little gas was on the plugs would ignite.

>Have you checked ignition timing
> while cranking? Do you have the distributor somehow out of time 180
> degrees? When was the timing belt changed last?
>

I looked at the top part of the belt when I adjusted the valves and saw
nothing but I didn't really inspect the whole thing. What I saw didn't
look bad. It was running fine and all of a sudden wouldn't start or do
anything. I hate to think what the odds are of the thing jumping time
*exactly* 180 degrees. I did notice that when the ignition is on, the
EGR selinoid makes some noise. I also hear a click from the MAP sensor.
I'm not sure if either of these are normal. BTW, what I call the EGR is
what I think it is. My manual doesn't show much. What I'm calling the
EGR is located on the RH side of the intake and has hoses to intake and
air cleaner. I don't know if either of these would cause it to fail
starting.

All I have for a timing light is an old fashioned one that won't work. I
need to buy an induction type one.
>


I've read that a condenser will make it not start, but I can't locate
it. I assume it's internal to the ignitor.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 03 Apr 2006, 05:02 pm
Elle
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: 91 Civic Won't Start

"Chuck" <chuck@westmichigan.net> wrote
> On 2006-04-03, TeGGeR® <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>> Chuck <chuck@westmichigan.net> wrote in
>>> I don't see any fuel spray. I tried starting fluid and
>>> gas in the past
>>> and get nothing, not even a sputter. They may not reach
>>> the cylinders
>>> though with the car on jackstands the fuel may be
>>> draining the other
>>> direction.
>>>
>>> I guess I need to know what feeds the injectors. I've
>>> checked fuses.

>>
>>
>> If you have throttle-body injection, the injectors and
>> the fuel pump all
>> get their power from termial 7 of the Main Relay.
>>

>
> I just checked the solder joints on the relay. They all
> *looked* fine.
>
>> No sputter at all is odd. With a good strong spark, you
>> should be getting
>> *some* sort of reponse from the engine.

>
> I just pulled all the plugs and checked for spark an its
> fine on all of
> them. In fact, what little gas was on the plugs would
> ignite.
>
>>Have you checked ignition timing
>> while cranking? Do you have the distributor somehow out
>> of time 180
>> degrees? When was the timing belt changed last?
>>

> I looked at the top part of the belt when I adjusted the
> valves and saw
> nothing but I didn't really inspect the whole thing. What
> I saw didn't
> look bad. It was running fine and all of a sudden wouldn't
> start or do
> anything. I hate to think what the odds are of the thing
> jumping time
> *exactly* 180 degrees. I did notice that when the ignition
> is on, the
> EGR selinoid makes some noise. I also hear a click from
> the MAP sensor.
> I'm not sure if either of these are normal. BTW, what I
> call the EGR is
> what I think it is. My manual doesn't show much. What I'm
> calling the
> EGR is located on the RH side of the intake and has hoses
> to intake and
> air cleaner. I don't know if either of these would cause
> it to fail
> starting.


The 91 fuel injected Civic does not have an EGR system.

> All I have for a timing light is an old fashioned one that
> won't work. I
> need to buy an induction type one.
>>

>
> I've read that a condenser will make it not start, but I
> can't locate
> it. I assume it's internal to the ignitor.


This condenser (a.k.a. "noise suppressor") is supposed to be
external on the 91 Civic. Yet I haven't found the one that's
supposed to be on my own 91 Civic LX.

Still, it's worth seeking. See
http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id5.html for some
guidance on the subject.


You floored the gas pedal, to see if it was flooding, right,
per Tegger's site's directions, right?


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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 03 Apr 2006, 05:51 pm
TeGGeR®
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Default Re: 91 Civic Won't Start

Chuck <chuck@westmichigan.net> wrote in
news:tRgYf.9086$Fc.6905@trnddc08:

> On 2006-04-03, TeGGeR® <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>> Chuck <chuck@westmichigan.net> wrote in
>> news:qKeYf.21678$fQ6.10582@trnddc03:


>
>>Have you checked ignition timing
>> while cranking? Do you have the distributor somehow out of time 180
>> degrees? When was the timing belt changed last?
>>

> I looked at the top part of the belt when I adjusted the valves and
> saw nothing but I didn't really inspect the whole thing. What I saw
> didn't look bad. It was running fine and all of a sudden wouldn't
> start or do anything. I hate to think what the odds are of the thing
> jumping time *exactly* 180 degrees.





It wouldn't, of course. But it might jump just enough to make the plugs
fire too far down the power stroke.

A suggestion, just to eliminate this as a possibility: Turn the engine by
hand with a wrench so the middle of the three marks on the crank pulley is
lined up with the timing belt cover. Now pull the cap off the distributor.
Where's the rotor pointed? It ought to be pointed pretty much right at the
#1 plug wire contact.



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 03 Apr 2006, 06:45 pm
TeGGeR®
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Default Re: 91 Civic Won't Start

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns979ABFE23ADCBtegger@207.14.113.17:

> Chuck <chuck@westmichigan.net> wrote in
> news:tRgYf.9086$Fc.6905@trnddc08:
>
>> On 2006-04-03, TeGGeR® <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:
>>> Chuck <chuck@westmichigan.net> wrote in
>>> news:qKeYf.21678$fQ6.10582@trnddc03:

>
>>
>>>Have you checked ignition timing
>>> while cranking? Do you have the distributor somehow out of time 180
>>> degrees? When was the timing belt changed last?
>>>

>> I looked at the top part of the belt when I adjusted the valves and
>> saw nothing but I didn't really inspect the whole thing. What I saw
>> didn't look bad. It was running fine and all of a sudden wouldn't
>> start or do anything. I hate to think what the odds are of the thing
>> jumping time *exactly* 180 degrees.

>
>
>
>
> It wouldn't, of course. But it might jump just enough to make the
> plugs fire too far down the power stroke.
>
> A suggestion, just to eliminate this as a possibility: Turn the engine
> by hand with a wrench so the middle of the three marks on the crank
> pulley is lined up with the timing belt cover. Now pull the cap off
> the distributor. Where's the rotor pointed? It ought to be pointed
> pretty much right at the #1 plug wire contact.
>
>
>



Needless to say, you have to be at TDC COMPRESSION for this, so the valves
would be closed.


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TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
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