Honda Car Forum

what up guys.. aite.. i got a problem.. i drive a 96 honda accord lx. 2.2l 4 cyl. 176,000 miles (*yes i kno its a old piece of shit*) last night when i was getting off the highway.. i noticed my engine was jerking... didnt think much of it until i stopped at the red light and the car was idling back and forth as if it was going to stall out.. when i got home.. i checked my oil .. VERY LOW..... changed it same problem.. checked the spark plugs n noticed.. there was oil in the 3rd and 4th spark plug hole.. i decided it was a leak in the vavle cover.... now this can range from.. jus a faulty gasket.. to jus a simple tune up.. i later got info that it could be my piston rings.. how do i determine which it is ....? n how much would it cost to fix if it is my pistion ring

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96_f22b2

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"96_f22b2" <96_f22b2.20uov6@no-mx.carstalk.net> wrote in message
news:96_f22b2.20uov6@no-mx.carstalk.net...
>
> what up guys.. aite.. i got a problem.. i drive a 96 honda accord lx. 2.2l
> 4 cyl. 176,000 miles (*yes i kno its a old piece of shit*) last night when
> i was getting off the highway.. i noticed my engine was jerking... didnt
> think much of it until i stopped at the red light and the car was idling
> back and forth as if it was going to stall out.. when i got home.. i
> checked my oil .. VERY LOW..... changed it same problem.. checked the
> spark plugs n noticed.. there was oil in the 3rd and 4th spark plug hole..
> i decided it was a leak in the vavle cover.... now this can range from..
> jus a faulty gasket.. to jus a simple tune up.. i later got info that it
> could be my piston rings.. how do i determine which it is ....? n how much
> would it cost to fix if it is my pistion rings
>
A '96 with 176K isn't really that old. With proper maintenance (not too late
to start!) it can provide many more years of reliable transportation.

Piston rings would be my last thought with what you describe. My first
thought is for the age of the timing belt. I don't think that is the cause
of your trouble, although it could be... and if it is, it is vital you not
start the engine again until you replace the belt. Here's the deal on that:
determine when the belt was last changed, and guesses or assumptions don't
count. It should have been changed around the 100K mile mark (consult your
owner's manual, hoping you have one). If you are on the original belt, or if
you *might* be, you are flirting with serious engine damage from the belt
failing. Let us know about this, because there isn't much point looking at
anything else until that's settled.

Otherwise, if the timing belt is not overdue for change, you are probably
looking at just catching up on routine maintenance and other minor stuff.
(Glad you got oil in it!)

Mike

96_f22b2 wrote:
> what up guys.. aite.. i got a problem.. i drive a 96 honda accord lx.
> 2.2l 4 cyl. 176,000 miles (*yes i kno its a old piece of shit*) last
> night when i was getting off the highway.. i noticed my engine was
> jerking... didnt think much of it until i stopped at the red light
> and the car was idling back and forth as if it was going to stall
> out.. when i got home.. i checked my oil .. VERY LOW..... changed it
> same problem.. checked the spark plugs n noticed.. there was oil in
> the 3rd and 4th spark plug hole.. i decided it was a leak in the
> vavle cover.... now this can range from.. jus a faulty gasket.. to
> jus a simple tune up.. i later got info that it could be my piston
> rings.. how do i determine which it is ....? n how much would it cost
> to fix if it is my pistion rings
>
>

check your coolant by looking inside the radiator, NOT the expansion
bottle. if you're losing oil & coolant, the head gasket's gone.

and unless this motor is seriously abused, like running it without oil,
176k on a 96 is barely middle aged.

No way is your car garbage for its age and miles. Like Mike
implied, at your rate, it should take you to 300k miles, as
long as a bit of regular maintenance is commenced.

Like Mike says, it could be your car just needs a serious
tuneup. Otherwise, I would suspect a failing ignition coil.
The oxygen sensor is also a possibility, but unless fuel
mileage is down, and since you don't say you've got a "Check
Engine Light" (which I'd expect in a 96, for OBDII), I think
the O2 sensor is less likely.

Since they're both a bit expensive, and your car sounds like
it could stand a tuneup, start with the less expensive
tuneup items as follows:

-- New, genuine Honda ignition wires, plugs, distributor cap
and rotor. These might make a big difference right away.
-- New air filter and fuel filter
-- Coolant drain and fill, using genuine Honda anti-freeze
or Havoline Dexcool. Purge cooling system properly of air,
using the manual. Air in the system can cause idle problems.

See how the car runs. If still giving you the problems,
check the resistance of the coil, using a Chilton's manual
as a guide. A new coil, without labor, will cost you about
$67 + shipping at online OEM Honda parts sites. Add $75 more
for labor. Also, if fuel mileage changes drastically,
suspect the oxygen sensor. That costs around $100 + shipping
from https://www.automedicsupply.com/ (best prices around
for OEM O2 sensors). But like I said, ISTM you really should
get the CEL on for a seriously bad O2 sensor on a 1996.

As for the oil in the spark plug tubes, your Accord has two
seals per spark plug tube that could be leaking. Given your
car's age, I would suspect the four O-rings that are lower
in the tubes have hardened and no longer seal properly.
Replacing them is kind of a big job--intermediate or
advanced beginner's. With help from two of the regulars
here, I did it recently on my 91 Civic, at about 172k miles.
I documented the effort at
http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id3.html . If
you've checked and adjusted the valve lash by yourself
before, you can probably do it.

I would not suspect piston rings. This newsgroup rarely, if
ever, gets reports of piston rings being blown for a car of
the age you give. Unless it's been abused somehow. But I
can't imagine how that might be.

I hope that timing belt is up to date, like Michael says.
It's not my first guess, but it's always helpful to have the
maintenance history posted here when troubleshooting
someone's car problem.

Updates are welcome, for the education of others in the
future. :-)


"96_f22b2" <96_f22b2.20uov6@no-mx.carstalk.net> wrote
> what up guys.. aite.. i got a problem.. i drive a 96 honda
accord lx. 2.2l 4 cyl. 176,000 miles (*yes i kno its a old
piece of shit*) last night when i was getting off the
highway.. i noticed my engine was jerking... didnt think
much of it until i stopped at the red light and the car was
idling back and forth as if it was going to stall out.. when
i got home.. i checked my oil .. VERY LOW..... changed it
same problem.. checked the spark plugs n noticed.. there was
oil in the 3rd and 4th spark plug hole.. i decided it was a
leak in the vavle cover.... now this can range from.. jus a
faulty gasket.. to jus a simple tune up.. i later got info
that it could be my piston rings.. how do i determine which
it is ....? n how much would it cost to fix if it is my
pistion rings

In article <Pwdtf.293$%W1.2@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> , "Elle"
<honda.lioness@nospamearthlink.net> wrote:

> No way is your car garbage for its age and miles. Like Mike
> implied, at your rate, it should take you to 300k miles, as
> long as a bit of regular maintenance is commenced.
>
> Like Mike says, it could be your car just needs a serious
> tuneup. Otherwise, I would suspect a failing ignition coil.
> The oxygen sensor is also a possibility, but unless fuel
> mileage is down, and since you don't say you've got a "Check
> Engine Light" (which I'd expect in a 96, for OBDII), I think
> the O2 sensor is less likely.
>
> Since they're both a bit expensive, and your car sounds like
> it could stand a tuneup, start with the less expensive
> tuneup items as follows:
>
> -- New, genuine Honda ignition wires, plugs, distributor cap
> and rotor. These might make a big difference right away.
> -- New air filter and fuel filter
> -- Coolant drain and fill, using genuine Honda anti-freeze
> or Havoline Dexcool. Purge cooling system properly of air,
> using the manual. Air in the system can cause idle problems.
>
> See how the car runs. If still giving you the problems,
> check the resistance of the coil, using a Chilton's manual
> as a guide. A new coil, without labor, will cost you about
> $67 + shipping at online OEM Honda parts sites. Add $75 more
> for labor. Also, if fuel mileage changes drastically,
> suspect the oxygen sensor. That costs around $100 + shipping
> from https://www.automedicsupply.com/ (best prices around
> for OEM O2 sensors). But like I said, ISTM you really should
> get the CEL on for a seriously bad O2 sensor on a 1996.
>
> As for the oil in the spark plug tubes, your Accord has two
> seals per spark plug tube that could be leaking. Given your
> car's age, I would suspect the four O-rings that are lower
> in the tubes have hardened and no longer seal properly.
> Replacing them is kind of a big job--intermediate or
> advanced beginner's. With help from two of the regulars
> here, I did it recently on my 91 Civic, at about 172k miles.
> I documented the effort at
> http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id3.html . If
> you've checked and adjusted the valve lash by yourself
> before, you can probably do it.
>
> I would not suspect piston rings. This newsgroup rarely, if
> ever, gets reports of piston rings being blown for a car of
> the age you give. Unless it's been abused somehow. But I
> can't imagine how that might be.
>
> I hope that timing belt is up to date, like Michael says.
> It's not my first guess, but it's always helpful to have the
> maintenance history posted here when troubleshooting
> someone's car problem.
>
> Updates are welcome, for the education of others in the
> future. :-)
>
>
> "96_f22b2" <96_f22b2.20uov6@no-mx.carstalk.net> wrote
> > what up guys.. aite.. i got a problem.. i drive a 96 honda
> accord lx. 2.2l 4 cyl. 176,000 miles (*yes i kno its a old
> piece of shit*) last night when i was getting off the
> highway.. i noticed my engine was jerking... didnt think
> much of it until i stopped at the red light and the car was
> idling back and forth as if it was going to stall out.. when
> i got home.. i checked my oil .. VERY LOW..... changed it
> same problem.. checked the spark plugs n noticed.. there was
> oil in the 3rd and 4th spark plug hole.. i decided it was a
> leak in the vavle cover.... now this can range from.. jus a
> faulty gasket.. to jus a simple tune up.. i later got info
> that it could be my piston rings.. how do i determine which
> it is ....? n how much would it cost to fix if it is my
> pistion rings

Elle,
Excellent post. I agree:
> As for the oil in the spark plug tubes, your Accord has two
> seals per spark plug tube that could be leaking. Given your
> car's age, I would suspect the four O-rings that are lower
> in the tubes have hardened and no longer seal properly.

I had this problem with my old 93 Accord. It took the mechanic
over 4 hours to replace them. It happened while I was on a trip
and had to have the car towed to the nearest Honda dealership.
I will never forget that day. I had to set in the waiting room
at the Honda dealership while the mechanic was working on the car.
I only wish that the problem had happened while I was in my home
town.
Jason

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NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

Elle wrote:
<snip>
> As for the oil in the spark plug tubes, your Accord has two
> seals per spark plug tube that could be leaking. Given your
> car's age, I would suspect the four O-rings that are lower
> in the tubes have hardened and no longer seal properly.

elle, you keep saying that, but i seriously doubt it to be true. the
seals that typically leak are the upper ones. they are the ones that
get disturbed every time the rocker cover comes off and they are the
ones that have to bridge the least well defined gap. replacement of
those upper seals cures 99.99% of leakage 99.99% of the time. the lower
seals are good to replace if you need to do head or cam work, but other
than that, leave well alone. inspect the spark plug tubes some time -
the leakage path is /always/ [99.99%] from the upper seal.

"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote
snip
> > As for the oil in the spark plug tubes, your Accord has
two
> > seals per spark plug tube that could be leaking. Given
your
> > car's age, I would suspect the four O-rings that are
lower
> > in the tubes have hardened and no longer seal properly.
>
> I had this problem with my old 93 Accord. It took the
mechanic
> over 4 hours to replace them. It happened while I was on a
trip
> and had to have the car towed to the nearest Honda
dealership.
> I will never forget that day. I had to set in the waiting
room
> at the Honda dealership while the mechanic was working on
the car.
> I only wish that the problem had happened while I was in
my home
> town.

Did the dealer tell you the oil leakage was catastrophic and
had to be done immediately?(?) If so, that sounds very
suspicious. I drove over a year with a little oil leaking in
every few months but in my estimation, getting progressively
worse. (At the time I thought the non-OEM valve cover spark
plug tube gaskets were the problem. But I wasn't sure, so I
just kept wacthing it all and of course reading here, until
Eric and Tegger said something to a guy with a similar
problem, and light bulbs started a-lighting... )

Hey, four hours! Great, on my first time doing this job
ever, going super slow, it took me about seven hours. Next
time, I estimate I will have it done in under four hours.

Do you remember what the guy charged you? It's 98% labor,
ISTM.

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
> Elle wrote:
> <snip>
> > As for the oil in the spark plug tubes, your Accord has
two
> > seals per spark plug tube that could be leaking. Given
your
> > car's age, I would suspect the four O-rings that are
lower
> > in the tubes have hardened and no longer seal properly.
>
> elle, you keep saying that, but i seriously doubt it to be
true.

Jim, it cured the problem on my 91 Civic, whereas new valve
cover spark plug tube gaskets did not. By my estimate, the
oil leakage did get steadily worse over a roughly two-year,
20k mile period. Here's my data:

Feb 04, 151k miles: Replaced spark plugs as part of
scheduled maintenance. My notes say two of the plugs had wet
oil on them, which did concern me at the time. (Not sure if
I observed oil in the tube or not. I didn't know to pay
close attention. I was a bit boggled by the oil on the
plugs. Never saw that before, and only once has someone else
done the plugs on my car.)

Feb O4: Replaced upper tube gaskets (probably after reading
here). I can't remember for sure if I used OEM gaskets or
not, but I don't think I did.

Subsequently, from Mar 2004-Aug 2005: Had the valve cover
off twice.

Sep O5, 170k miles: Inspected spark plug tubes. Two had oil
in them--more than I'd ever noticed before. Wiped out.

Oct 05: Saw posts by Eric and Tegger troubleshooting another
guy's oil-in-spark-plug-tubes problem. Probably checked
tubes again in next week or so. Oily. Mopped out.
Groups.googled on subject

Oct 05: Replaced lower O-rings.

Nov 05: Various little stuff, like cleaning distributor
area, checking ignition timing, replacing valve cover gasket
(but not upper seals). Tubes appear oil free. With long
needle nose pliers, I stick a Q-tip down there to check.

The old O-rings I took out this past Fall were in fact quite
hard compared to the new ones. They "break" as opposed to
tear, brittle-like instead of rubber like. I doubt they were
sealing.

Others have reported on these lower seals before here.

> the
> seals that typically leak are the upper ones.
> they are the ones that
> get disturbed every time the rocker cover comes off

Here is the guideline that I think should be used upon
seeing oil in the plug tubes:

First, the Honda owner should replace the upper gaskets.
These are in the valve cover and so are a pretty easy DIY
job. Monitor the tubes for oil accumulation once a week or
so, depending on how much was originally seen in the tubes,
for a couple of months, especially if the car has over 120k
miles on it. Mop out every time. If oil continues to
accumulate, check that your year and model of Honda has the
lower O-rings (some Hondas do not), and replace these.

In article <MWetf.343$%W1.1@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> , "Elle"
<honda.lioness@nospamearthlink.net> wrote:

> "Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote
> snip
> > > As for the oil in the spark plug tubes, your Accord has
> two
> > > seals per spark plug tube that could be leaking. Given
> your
> > > car's age, I would suspect the four O-rings that are
> lower
> > > in the tubes have hardened and no longer seal properly.
> >
> > I had this problem with my old 93 Accord. It took the
> mechanic
> > over 4 hours to replace them. It happened while I was on a
> trip
> > and had to have the car towed to the nearest Honda
> dealership.
> > I will never forget that day. I had to set in the waiting
> room
> > at the Honda dealership while the mechanic was working on
> the car.
> > I only wish that the problem had happened while I was in
> my home
> > town.
>
> Did the dealer tell you the oil leakage was catastrophic and
> had to be done immediately?(?) If so, that sounds very
> suspicious. I drove over a year with a little oil leaking in
> every few months but in my estimation, getting progressively
> worse. (At the time I thought the non-OEM valve cover spark
> plug tube gaskets were the problem. But I wasn't sure, so I
> just kept wacthing it all and of course reading here, until
> Eric and Tegger said something to a guy with a similar
> problem, and light bulbs started a-lighting... )
>
> Hey, four hours! Great, on my first time doing this job
> ever, going super slow, it took me about seven hours. Next
> time, I estimate I will have it done in under four hours.
>
> Do you remember what the guy charged you? It's 98% labor,
> ISTM.

There were two mechanics working together on the project since
the manager knew that I was setting in the waiting room.They wanted
to finish the job as quickly as possible. The problem was so bad
that the car almost stopped running. The engine light came on so
I pulled off the freeway at the next exit. I did not know what was
wrong with the car until the mechanic discovered the source of the
problem. I now keep a code checker in the tool box in the trunk.
Jason

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote
"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospamearthlink.net> wrote:
> > > > Given
> > > > your
> > > > car's age, I would suspect the four O-rings that are
> > lower
> > > > in the tubes have hardened and no longer seal
properly.
> > >
> > > I had this problem with my old 93 Accord. It took the
> > mechanic
> > > over 4 hours to replace them.
snip for brevity
> There were two mechanics working together on the project
since
> the manager knew that I was setting in the waiting
room.They wanted
> to finish the job as quickly as possible. The problem was
so bad
> that the car almost stopped running. The engine light came
on so
> I pulled off the freeway at the next exit. I did not know
what was
> wrong with the car until the mechanic discovered the
source of the
> problem. I now keep a code checker in the tool box in the
trunk.
> Jason

Wow--a catastrophic lower spark plug tube O-ring failure. Do
you remember about how many miles were on the Accord?

I'll mention this catastrophic failure to my site on these
O-rings, if you don't mind.