Honda Car Forum

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:gQLrf.10315$nm.920@newsread2.news.atl.earthli nk.net...
> > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote
> >> Actually, I believe the tach does get its signal from a
> > separate lead on the
> >> igniter.
> >
> > The electrical diagram for the ignition system suggests you
> > are remembering correctly. See the top schematic at
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id5.html . Tegger's
> > version appears to confirm it:
> > http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
> >
> >
> >> The current symptoms do sound like igniter trouble, but
> > the igniter
> >> (and tune-up parts) are a little less than a year old...
> > from March, IIRC. I
> >> might be wise to re-heatsink the igniter, though.
> >>
> >> What makes me think it isn't distributor sensor trouble is
> > that there is no
> >> "check engine" light, suggesting the problem is past the
> > ECU... i.e. igniter
> >> or coil, or high tension side (like the rotor or cap.)
> >
> > Plus ISTM igniters don't exactly seem to die slowly, at
> > least not the way coils often do. Igniters seem more like an
> > all-or-nothing deal, with symptoms only for the very
> > observant, at best.
> >
> >
> I have a Bosch coil ordered through alleurasianautoparts.com, should be here
> by Wednesday. Since there really is no way to determine whether the coil is
> failing intermittently and 225K miles is a lot of service to expect from
> one, it seemed like the prudent thing to do. I can check the ignition switch
> by seeing if the voltage across it fluctuates from one time to the next, but
> the coil keeps its secrets.
>
> In my experience, the more power a device handles the more likely it is to
> have a limited life. An ignition coil has to transform hefty currents into
> hefty high voltage jolts, so I don't expect it to last forever. Thanks again
> for the suggestion.
>
> Mike

I'm with Elle on the ignitor's failure mode. One would imagine that
these things just fail very quickly (unless it is thermal in nature,
oif course)

Could it be that the power to the ignitor is intermittent - A bad
contact in that path somewhere?
Imagine a bad intermittent contact on the 12V (or ground) to the
ignitor while the car is running. It would certainly translate into bad
spark (too narrow) and getting noise on the tach lead..

Remco

"Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
> I stand corrected and didn't mean to mislead
> anyone.
> It has been a while since I looked at the ignitor and
didn't have my
> manual handy, but that's a bad defense <blushing>

I've looked at the schematic I cited and Tegger's igniter
site closely at least half a dozen times each this past
year, and I forgot about the tach output until Michael P.
mentioned and I re-checked. That the Tach signal comes from
the igniter doesn't exactly pass the common sense test. At
least not at first blush, afaic.

I trust you see Tegger's site confirms the rest of your
conjecture, about the igniter being mostly a Darlington pair
transistor, yada.

> This is why we need those pros, huh

Yes, plus repair manual hounds. :-)

Elle wrote:
> "Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
> > I stand corrected and didn't mean to mislead
> > anyone.
> > It has been a while since I looked at the ignitor and
> didn't have my
> > manual handy, but that's a bad defense <blushing>
>
> I've looked at the schematic I cited and Tegger's igniter
> site closely at least half a dozen times each this past
> year, and I forgot about the tach output until Michael P.
> mentioned and I re-checked. That the Tach signal comes from
> the igniter doesn't exactly pass the common sense test. At
> least not at first blush, afaic.
>

Aw, shuks - now you're just trying to make me feel better

Yeah, that is kinda weird how they have the tach input coming from the
ignitor. One would imagine they could have just as easily taken the
signal going to the ignitor (possibly current boost it a little) and
feed it into the tach directly. Less wire and things that can go wrong,
imo...

Maybe they did that as a trouble shooting measure or we can use at as
such: This morning I cranked my wife's integra and noticed that while
cranking the tach moves very slightly. Maybe if a honda cranks and the
tach does not move it is an indication that the ignitor is bad..? That
would be an interesting thought.

Wonder how Michael is making out with this thing.

Remco

"Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
> Elle wrote:
> > "Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
> > > I stand corrected and didn't mean to mislead
> > > anyone.
> > > It has been a while since I looked at the ignitor and
> > didn't have my
> > > manual handy, but that's a bad defense <blushing>
> >
> > I've looked at the schematic I cited and Tegger's
igniter
> > site closely at least half a dozen times each this past
> > year, and I forgot about the tach output until Michael
P.
> > mentioned and I re-checked. That the Tach signal comes
from
> > the igniter doesn't exactly pass the common sense test.
At
> > least not at first blush, afaic.
> >
>
> Aw, shuks - now you're just trying to make me feel better


You and anyone else who posts or lurks here. This was not an
easy catch, IMO. But as importantly, a group like this will
thrive only with open-mindedness and polite honesty. (Not
that I excel at these, but I know I'm supposed to try... :-)

> Yeah, that is kinda weird how they have the tach input
coming from the
> ignitor. One would imagine they could have just as easily
taken the
> signal going to the ignitor (possibly current boost it a
little) and
> feed it into the tach directly.

I thought maybe this might be happening anyway. The igniter
gets input from the ECU, of course, after all.

On further thought, the RPM signal really had to be
someplace in the vicinity of the camshaft or crankshaft. And
someplace protected, like the distributor housing. I am
thinking many other cars have their tach input coming from
somewhere within the distributor as well.

> Less wire and things that can go wrong,
> imo...
>
> Maybe they did that as a trouble shooting measure or we
can use at as
> such: This morning I cranked my wife's integra and noticed
that while
> cranking the tach moves very slightly. Maybe if a honda
cranks and the
> tach does not move it is an indication that the ignitor is
bad..?

Tegger's site certainly puts emphasis on this notion. See
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/badigniter.
html

I see on further examination that Tegger's drawing (at
another of his sites on the igniter) has the Tach signal
coming out of the igniter's control chip, for one thing.

> That
> would be an interesting thought.
>
> Wonder how Michael is making out with this thing.

<Whispering: Why's one of our regulars buying a non-OEM
coil?>

Elle wrote:
>
> <Whispering: Why's one of our regulars buying a non-OEM
> coil?>

Lol -- yeah, I was kinda wondering the same thing. That aforementioned
mentioned politeness thing had me keeping it to myself.
Sorry for getting on your case, Michael.

"Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135623154.429489.82800@g47g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...

> Wonder how Michael is making out with this thing.
>
> Remco
>
Thanks for asking! Kinda in a holding pattern. My daughter got back with it
just now, so I can check out the ignition switch and the engine ground. No
failures since Friday, though. Whether that's good news or bad news is a
matter of perspective :-}

Mike

================================================== ============================
TOPIC: Ignition cut-out
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.a...a5fd8cba927459
================================================== ============================

> From: "alt.autos.honda group" <noreply@googlegroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 07:20:29 +0000
>
>
> == 1 of 3 ==
> Date: Sat, Dec 24 2005 10:25 pm
> From: "Michael Pardee"
>
> This evening (yes - Christmas eve) my daughter's '93
> Accord LX (225K miles) suffered a short bout of engine
> failure. She described it as surging a couple times
> when she tried to accelerate, then the engine died when
> she braked. I quizzed her about the tach and she was
> clear it was jumping rather than swinging with the
> engine. It didn't start right away, but would sputter
> occasionally and eventually lit off as though flooded
> (which it probably was by then).
>
> The Main Relay and ignitor are each about a year old
> (but both are NAPA aftermarket, since the car insists
> on breaking down on Sundays and holidays). The timing
> belt is 4 years, 60K miles old. My son and I replaced
> the radiator about 2 weeks ago, so I am wondering if we
> stirred up evil spirits in the process of that. He bled
> the system carefully, but a leak in the lower radiator
> hose attachment may have let air in. I haven't done a
> visual inspection yet, but will in the morning.
>
> What comes to mind? Ignition switch? Some particular
> underhood wiring? Distributor? Something I'm
> forgetting? She is committed to driving to San Diego in
> a week or so and I'd sure like to sort this out by then.



> == 2 of 3 ==
> Date: Sun, Dec 25 2005 5:31 am
> From: "Elle"
>
> How old's the ignition coil?
>
> I'd try to do a check of it early on. Dying when
> braking--then being able to restart it after a cooldown
> period, at least until the coil fails completely--is a
> symptom.
>
> I know you have a lot of experience with Hondas. This is
> just where I'd start, based on the car's age and
> symptoms.



> == 1 of 1 ==
> Date: Sun, Dec 25 2005 11:14 am
> From: "Remco"
>
>
> I wonder if the problem is electrical in nature, because
> the RPMs were jumping around wildly.
>
> Since the tach and engine timing both get their signal
> from the crank sensor, I'd also look in that area.



> == 2 of 5 ==
> Date: Sun, Dec 25 2005 4:39 pm
> From: "Remco"
>
snip
>
> Not sure about any previous post on this issue, but the
> ignitor seems to just be a larger power transistor
> (probably a darlington, but that's besides a point).
>
> The way this transistor is configured, it simply acts as
> a switch that that closes/opens a contact when its input
> changes states (to simplify it all, imagine a relay with
> a coil and contact - that is not quite what a transistor
> is, but behaves quite similarly the way an ignitor is
> hooked up).
> When a level is applied to its input, it switches the
> primary side (the 12V side, basically) of the coil to
> ground and does this at a very high rate of speed. The
> secondary of the coil is what generates a high voltage
> spark.
> The output of the ignitor does not seem to attach to
> anything else so iti it breaks you won't have spark.
>
> I don't think the tach is getting its signal from the
> ignitor, so don't see how one can tell by the tach that
> the ignitor is bad. If you somehow can detect this on
> the tach, it must be some sort of weird artifact.



I thought coils last forever. I never had to replace a
coil, rotor, cup, or wire on any of my cars. I have an
Accord that soon will be 22. But on this list it is
very frequently recommended to replace, even on young
cars, all kind of ignition parts. To me this sounds
like "it won't do any harm, so lets replace it."

I have a question about the original message:

> ... suffered a short bout of engine
> failure. She described it as surging a couple times
> when she tried to accelerate, then the engine died
> when she braked. I quizzed her about the tach and
> she was clear it was jumping rather than swinging
> with the engine.

Surging - meaning the rpm increased (suddenly,
audibly?) more than expected, right? With the cars I am
familiar this would not happen when any of the ignition
parts fail, to the contrary, they would slow down.

In order for the engine to rev up, without any
corresponding increase of the speed, there must be a
disconnect between engine and road, for example
slipping of the clutch or AT - which most likely
happens when they cannot transmit the increased power
during acceleration.





..

"Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1135623154.429489.82800@g47g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:

>
> Elle wrote:
>> "Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
>> > I stand corrected and didn't mean to mislead
>> > anyone.
>> > It has been a while since I looked at the ignitor and
>> didn't have my
>> > manual handy, but that's a bad defense <blushing>
>>
>> I've looked at the schematic I cited and Tegger's igniter
>> site closely at least half a dozen times each this past
>> year, and I forgot about the tach output until Michael P.
>> mentioned and I re-checked. That the Tach signal comes from
>> the igniter doesn't exactly pass the common sense test. At
>> least not at first blush, afaic.
>>
>
> Aw, shuks - now you're just trying to make me feel better
>
> Yeah, that is kinda weird how they have the tach input coming from the
> ignitor. One would imagine they could have just as easily taken the
> signal going to the ignitor (possibly current boost it a little) and
> feed it into the tach directly. Less wire and things that can go wrong,
> imo...
>
> Maybe they did that as a trouble shooting measure or we can use at as
> such: This morning I cranked my wife's integra and noticed that while
> cranking the tach moves very slightly. Maybe if a honda cranks and the
> tach does not move it is an indication that the ignitor is bad..? That
> would be an interesting thought.
>
> Wonder how Michael is making out with this thing.
>
> Remco
>

I doubt a starter will crank the motor fast enough to make any significant
reading on the tach.
What's the smallest RPM indication on the tach,100 RPM?
No starter turns the motor that fast.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

"Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1135630208.989556.185180@g43g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:

>
> Elle wrote:
>>
>> <Whispering: Why's one of our regulars buying a non-OEM
>> coil?>
>
> Lol -- yeah, I was kinda wondering the same thing. That aforementioned
> mentioned politeness thing had me keeping it to myself.
> Sorry for getting on your case, Michael.
>
>

I wonder if using a non-integral distributor cap/coil like the separate MSD
racing coil and plain distributor cap would be a more durable system?

MSD is supposed to have a good reputation.

I never liked the idea of an integral cap and coil.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik wrote:
> "Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:1135623154.429489.82800@g47g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:
>
> >
> > Elle wrote:
> >> "Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
> >> > I stand corrected and didn't mean to mislead
> >> > anyone.
> >> > It has been a while since I looked at the ignitor and
> >> didn't have my
> >> > manual handy, but that's a bad defense <blushing>
> >>
> >> I've looked at the schematic I cited and Tegger's igniter
> >> site closely at least half a dozen times each this past
> >> year, and I forgot about the tach output until Michael P.
> >> mentioned and I re-checked. That the Tach signal comes from
> >> the igniter doesn't exactly pass the common sense test. At
> >> least not at first blush, afaic.
> >>
> >
> > Aw, shuks - now you're just trying to make me feel better
> >
> > Yeah, that is kinda weird how they have the tach input coming from the
> > ignitor. One would imagine they could have just as easily taken the
> > signal going to the ignitor (possibly current boost it a little) and
> > feed it into the tach directly. Less wire and things that can go wrong,
> > imo...
> >
> > Maybe they did that as a trouble shooting measure or we can use at as
> > such: This morning I cranked my wife's integra and noticed that while
> > cranking the tach moves very slightly. Maybe if a honda cranks and the
> > tach does not move it is an indication that the ignitor is bad..? That
> > would be an interesting thought.
> >
> > Wonder how Michael is making out with this thing.
> >
> > Remco
> >
>
> I doubt a starter will crank the motor fast enough to make any significant
> reading on the tach.
> What's the smallest RPM indication on the tach,100 RPM?
> No starter turns the motor that fast.
>
> --
Well, FWIW on my wife's Integra I see the needle bump around zero when
it starts. It would be interesting to see if it still does that with a
bad ignitor..

Remco