Honda Car Forum

Michael Pardee wrote:

> On the diesel front, count me out. I just got a new work truck last month -
> a TDi F350 Super Duty.

A modern automotive diesel powerplant, as about half the new cars sold
in Europe use, is a much different story than the converted tractor
motor Ford is using.

John

The International engine that Ford uses in its light trucks turns a lot
faster then any either one of them us in their farm equipment.


mike hunt


"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:F3ubf.8839$dU6.6667@trnddc03...
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>
>> On the diesel front, count me out. I just got a new work truck last
>> month - a TDi F350 Super Duty.
>
> A modern automotive diesel powerplant, as about half the new cars sold in
> Europe use, is a much different story than the converted tractor motor
> Ford is using.
>
> John

Mike Hunter wrote:
> The International engine that Ford uses in its light trucks turns a lot
> faster then any either one of them us in their farm equipment.
>
>
> mike hunt
>


Even so, it is at nothing approaching the sophistication level of the
best modern European car diesels.

John

John Horner wrote:

> Mike Hunter wrote:
>> The International engine that Ford uses in its light trucks turns a lot
>> faster then any either one of them us in their farm equipment.
>>
>> mike hunt
>>
>
> Even so, it is at nothing approaching the sophistication level of the
> best modern European car diesels.
>
> John

Pay no attention to "Mike Hunter". He is a notorious pro-Ford liar and
troll in the Toyota newsgroup (to which this thread had been cross-posted).

On Fri, 4 Nov 2005 15:41:31 -0500, "Mike Hunter"
<mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote:

>I suppose the reason is the Civic buyer can get a better perspective on the
>premium price one must pay to buy a hybrid when looking at the came car with
>the different power plants. That premium will buy nearly ALL of the fuel
>for a conventional powered Civic. In the case of the Prius most buyers do
>not think to compare it to the Corolla for size, price, and fuel mileage.
>To say nothing of the fact dealers never mention the huge battery
>replacement cost somewhere down the line.
>

You know, I've heard this comment about battery life and huge battery
replacement cost before. So I'm curious, just how long is the life
expectancy of a hybrid battery? Would that mean that the resale value
of a used hybrid would drop faster with time than a similar model
non-hybrid?

CD

Cranky Dude wrote:

>
> You know, I've heard this comment about battery life and huge battery
> replacement cost before. So I'm curious, just how long is the life
> expectancy of a hybrid battery? Would that mean that the resale value
> of a used hybrid would drop faster with time than a similar model
> non-hybrid?
>
> CD
>

It is a good question and one which I suspect the car makers know the
answer to, but are keeping quiet about. The battery technology being
used is a larger implemenation of the same rechargeable battery types
already deployed in laptops, cordless power tools, digital cameras, cell
phone and the like. I have had more laptop batteries totally fail to
take a charge than I would care to think about. They typically work
great at first, but months or years down the line need to be replaced at
a high cost.

With cordless power tools (drills, etc.) it is often cheaper to buy a
whole new one than it is to replace the power packs. Typically a couple
of years of moderate use is all it takes for those battery packs to be
worthless.

Lithium batteries, for example, are generally rated for 300-500
charge-discharge cycles before being useless. Typically as the number of
cycles adds up, the capacity deteriorates.

See: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

Nicad batteries are generally considered usefull for around 700
carefully managed cycles.

See: http://www.directron.com/batteryterms.html

I believe that the Prius and other presently available hybrids use Nicad
for this longer cycle life, even though Lithium batteries offer a
higher power density.

There are no 5-10 year old Nicad laden cars on the road right now, so
only time will tell. My guess is that somewhere around 2009-2010 there
are going to be a bunch of surprised and angry customers, many of them
the second owners of these vehicles.

John

On 2005-11-07, John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote:

> There are no 5-10 year old Nicad laden cars on the road right now, so
> only time will tell. My guess is that somewhere around 2009-2010 there
> are going to be a bunch of surprised and angry customers, many of them
> the second owners of these vehicles.

A google search using hybrid battery replacement reveals much. The
consensus of many critics seems to be that hybrids, for the price, are
not yet cost effective and are now just a "feel good" car for well off
tree huggers.

nb

notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote:
>A google search using hybrid battery replacement reveals much. The
>consensus of many critics seems to be that hybrids, for the price, are
>not yet cost effective and are now just a "feel good" car for well off
>tree huggers.

The hybrids have never been cost effective, pretty much everyone
agrees on that.


=====================

Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.

....G.K. Chesterton

"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:JkNbf.3914$Bx.3718@trnddc01...
> Cranky Dude wrote:
>
>>
>> You know, I've heard this comment about battery life and huge battery
>> replacement cost before. So I'm curious, just how long is the life
>> expectancy of a hybrid battery? Would that mean that the resale value
>> of a used hybrid would drop faster with time than a similar model
>> non-hybrid?
>>
>> CD
>>
>
> It is a good question and one which I suspect the car makers know the
> answer to, but are keeping quiet about. The battery technology being used
> is a larger implemenation of the same rechargeable battery types already
> deployed in laptops, cordless power tools, digital cameras, cell phone and
> the like. I have had more laptop batteries totally fail to take a charge
> than I would care to think about. They typically work great at first,
> but months or years down the line need to be replaced at a high cost.
>
> With cordless power tools (drills, etc.) it is often cheaper to buy a
> whole new one than it is to replace the power packs. Typically a couple
> of years of moderate use is all it takes for those battery packs to be
> worthless.
>
> Lithium batteries, for example, are generally rated for 300-500
> charge-discharge cycles before being useless. Typically as the number of
> cycles adds up, the capacity deteriorates.
>
> See: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
>
> Nicad batteries are generally considered usefull for around 700 carefully
> managed cycles.
>
> See: http://www.directron.com/batteryterms.html
>
> I believe that the Prius and other presently available hybrids use Nicad
> for this longer cycle life, even though Lithium batteries offer a higher
> power density.
>
> There are no 5-10 year old Nicad laden cars on the road right now, so only
> time will tell. My guess is that somewhere around 2009-2010 there are
> going to be a bunch of surprised and angry customers, many of them the
> second owners of these vehicles.

The Prius does not use NiCads. It uses nickel-metal hydride (NiMH)
batteries. And the Prius system only discharges htem to about 80% of
capacity. These batteries have very good life, and the limited dicharge
enhances this further. I believe that in normal usage, you can expect the
battery to last 150,000-200,000 miles.

http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_kaku.html
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=135399&page=1
http://www.lubbockautos.com/autonews...a/062204.shtml

Ed

No matter how one choose to spin it, the Prius will need a new battery pack
at some point in its life and the cost at that time will be so high, in
comparison to the value of the vehicle, that its value with spent batteries
will by virtually nothing. Who is going to foolish enough to replace a
$4,000 battery pack in a $4,000 vehicle?

mike hunt


"C. E. White" <cewhite3@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:YqQbf.6122$m81.3588@newsread1.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
>
> "John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:JkNbf.3914$Bx.3718@trnddc01...
>> Cranky Dude wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You know, I've heard this comment about battery life and huge battery
>>> replacement cost before. So I'm curious, just how long is the life
>>> expectancy of a hybrid battery? Would that mean that the resale value
>>> of a used hybrid would drop faster with time than a similar model
>>> non-hybrid?
>>>
>>> CD
>>>
>>
>> It is a good question and one which I suspect the car makers know the
>> answer to, but are keeping quiet about. The battery technology being
>> used is a larger implemenation of the same rechargeable battery types
>> already deployed in laptops, cordless power tools, digital cameras, cell
>> phone and the like. I have had more laptop batteries totally fail to
>> take a charge than I would care to think about. They typically work
>> great at first, but months or years down the line need to be replaced at
>> a high cost.
>>
>> With cordless power tools (drills, etc.) it is often cheaper to buy a
>> whole new one than it is to replace the power packs. Typically a couple
>> of years of moderate use is all it takes for those battery packs to be
>> worthless.
>>
>> Lithium batteries, for example, are generally rated for 300-500
>> charge-discharge cycles before being useless. Typically as the number of
>> cycles adds up, the capacity deteriorates.
>>
>> See: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
>>
>> Nicad batteries are generally considered usefull for around 700 carefully
>> managed cycles.
>>
>> See: http://www.directron.com/batteryterms.html
>>
>> I believe that the Prius and other presently available hybrids use Nicad
>> for this longer cycle life, even though Lithium batteries offer a higher
>> power density.
>>
>> There are no 5-10 year old Nicad laden cars on the road right now, so
>> only time will tell. My guess is that somewhere around 2009-2010 there
>> are going to be a bunch of surprised and angry customers, many of them
>> the second owners of these vehicles.
>
> The Prius does not use NiCads. It uses nickel-metal hydride (NiMH)
> batteries. And the Prius system only discharges htem to about 80% of
> capacity. These batteries have very good life, and the limited dicharge
> enhances this further. I believe that in normal usage, you can expect the
> battery to last 150,000-200,000 miles.
>
> http://www.peve.panasonic.co.jp/catalog/e_kaku.html
> http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=135399&page=1
> http://www.lubbockautos.com/autonews...a/062204.shtml
>
> Ed
>