Honda Car Forum

You have done some very good work so far. I had a similar problem with a
95 Civic after doing a valve adjustment. By just cranking it just a few
turns in my driveway with the secondary of the coil disconnected, I fried
the coil and ignitor. You should always disconnect the primary of the
coil or ground the high voltage secondary before cranking. Otherwise the
high voltage creates its own path through the coil shorting it out
internally. It seems it's not unusual for a coil and ignitor to go out
together as confirmed to me, after the fact, by a dealer and an
independent shop. I did not believe my coil could be bad too, but when I
checked it out again with a high quality ohm meter, it was just outside
the spec limits. If not the coil, I would be looking at that main relay
regardless of clicks, then lastly the ECU. Good luck.

duckbill wrote:
> You have done some very good work so far. I had a similar problem with a
> 95 Civic after doing a valve adjustment. By just cranking it just a few
> turns in my driveway with the secondary of the coil disconnected, I fried
> the coil and ignitor. You should always disconnect the primary of the
> coil or ground the high voltage secondary before cranking. Otherwise the
> high voltage creates its own path through the coil shorting it out
> internally. It seems it's not unusual for a coil and ignitor to go out
> together as confirmed to me, after the fact, by a dealer and an
> independent shop. I did not believe my coil could be bad too, but when I
> checked it out again with a high quality ohm meter, it was just outside
> the spec limits. If not the coil, I would be looking at that main relay
> regardless of clicks, then lastly the ECU. Good luck.

Duckbill actually has a very good point, about the coil:

On my wife's integra, the coil measured fine, but had discolorations
along where it was close to the bracket. It was actually rough in
spots, not smooth as one would expect a molded part to look like.
I suspect that it may have arced through in those places.

Remco wrote:
> duckbill wrote:
>
>>You have done some very good work so far. I had a similar problem with a
>>95 Civic after doing a valve adjustment. By just cranking it just a few
>>turns in my driveway with the secondary of the coil disconnected, I fried
>>the coil and ignitor. You should always disconnect the primary of the
>>coil or ground the high voltage secondary before cranking. Otherwise the
>>high voltage creates its own path through the coil shorting it out
>>internally. It seems it's not unusual for a coil and ignitor to go out
>>together as confirmed to me, after the fact, by a dealer and an
>>independent shop. I did not believe my coil could be bad too, but when I
>>checked it out again with a high quality ohm meter, it was just outside
>>the spec limits. If not the coil, I would be looking at that main relay
>>regardless of clicks, then lastly the ECU. Good luck.
>
>
> Duckbill actually has a very good point, about the coil:
>
> On my wife's integra, the coil measured fine, but had discolorations
> along where it was close to the bracket. It was actually rough in
> spots, not smooth as one would expect a molded part to look like.
> I suspect that it may have arced through in those places.

Seconded - an ohmeter won't tell you if high voltage is arcing through
(unless you have an ohmeter that tests at 50kV).

Also, duckbill may have a point on the main relay: the clicking shows
that the solenoid of the relay is working fine, but the switched
contacts may be no good.



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"Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
> duckbill wrote:
> > You have done some very good work so far. I had a similar problem with
a
> > 95 Civic after doing a valve adjustment. By just cranking it just a few
> > turns in my driveway with the secondary of the coil disconnected, I
fried
> > the coil and ignitor. You should always disconnect the primary of the
> > coil or ground the high voltage secondary before cranking. Otherwise the
> > high voltage creates its own path through the coil shorting it out
> > internally. It seems it's not unusual for a coil and ignitor to go out
> > together as confirmed to me, after the fact, by a dealer and an
> > independent shop. I did not believe my coil could be bad too, but when
I
> > checked it out again with a high quality ohm meter, it was just outside
> > the spec limits. If not the coil, I would be looking at that main relay
> > regardless of clicks, then lastly the ECU. Good luck.
>
> Duckbill actually has a very good point, about the coil:
>
> On my wife's integra, the coil measured fine, but had discolorations
> along where it was close to the bracket. It was actually rough in
> spots, not smooth as one would expect a molded part to look like.
> I suspect that it may have arced through in those places.

This part of Tegger's FAQ seems appropriate:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/badse...al-arcing.html

Note Mike's comment that the coil "zap spot" is barely noticeable in
ordinary lighting.

Click on "back to top" of this site to see more discussion of this.

I would think such a coil failure would show up on a resistance check of the
coil. Sprog, did you do the manual's resistance check of the coil? There are
actually three.

"Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
news:Ot6af.4843$yX2.4436@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net:

> "Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
>> duckbill wrote:
>> > You have done some very good work so far. I had a similar problem
>> > with
> a
>> > 95 Civic after doing a valve adjustment. By just cranking it just
>> > a few turns in my driveway with the secondary of the coil
>> > disconnected, I
> fried
>> > the coil and ignitor. You should always disconnect the primary of
>> > the coil or ground the high voltage secondary before cranking.
>> > Otherwise the high voltage creates its own path through the coil
>> > shorting it out internally. It seems it's not unusual for a coil
>> > and ignitor to go out together as confirmed to me, after the fact,
>> > by a dealer and an independent shop. I did not believe my coil
>> > could be bad too, but when
> I
>> > checked it out again with a high quality ohm meter, it was just
>> > outside the spec limits. If not the coil, I would be looking at
>> > that main relay regardless of clicks, then lastly the ECU. Good
>> > luck.
>>
>> Duckbill actually has a very good point, about the coil:
>>
>> On my wife's integra, the coil measured fine, but had discolorations
>> along where it was close to the bracket. It was actually rough in
>> spots, not smooth as one would expect a molded part to look like.
>> I suspect that it may have arced through in those places.
>
> This part of Tegger's FAQ seems appropriate:
>
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/badse...al-arcing.html
>
> Note Mike's comment that the coil "zap spot" is barely noticeable in
> ordinary lighting.
>
> Click on "back to top" of this site to see more discussion of this.
>
> I would think such a coil failure would show up on a resistance check
> of the coil. Sprog, did you do the manual's resistance check of the
> coil? There are actually three.
>
>
>

Resistance checks on inductors is kinda iffy.
For the secondary of an ignition coil,it is usable because of the large
number of turns to get the HV,but if turns close to one end short,the
resistance change will not be noticeable,but the short will still affect
the coil's operation.

Dick Smith Electronics makes a coil ringer for TV flybacks that IMO would
be effective in testing an auto ignition coil,although I've never used one
or tried it.(same principle;TV flyback and auto ignition coil.)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik wrote:
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
> news:Ot6af.4843$yX2.4436@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net:
>
> > "Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
> >> duckbill wrote:
> >> > You have done some very good work so far. I had a similar problem
> >> > with
> > a
> >> > 95 Civic after doing a valve adjustment. By just cranking it just
> >> > a few turns in my driveway with the secondary of the coil
> >> > disconnected, I
> > fried
> >> > the coil and ignitor. You should always disconnect the primary of
> >> > the coil or ground the high voltage secondary before cranking.
> >> > Otherwise the high voltage creates its own path through the coil
> >> > shorting it out internally. It seems it's not unusual for a coil
> >> > and ignitor to go out together as confirmed to me, after the fact,
> >> > by a dealer and an independent shop. I did not believe my coil
> >> > could be bad too, but when
> > I
> >> > checked it out again with a high quality ohm meter, it was just
> >> > outside the spec limits. If not the coil, I would be looking at
> >> > that main relay regardless of clicks, then lastly the ECU. Good
> >> > luck.
> >>
> >> Duckbill actually has a very good point, about the coil:
> >>
> >> On my wife's integra, the coil measured fine, but had discolorations
> >> along where it was close to the bracket. It was actually rough in
> >> spots, not smooth as one would expect a molded part to look like.
> >> I suspect that it may have arced through in those places.
> >
> > This part of Tegger's FAQ seems appropriate:
> >
> > http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/badse...al-arcing.html
> >
> > Note Mike's comment that the coil "zap spot" is barely noticeable in
> > ordinary lighting.
> >
> > Click on "back to top" of this site to see more discussion of this.
> >
> > I would think such a coil failure would show up on a resistance check
> > of the coil. Sprog, did you do the manual's resistance check of the
> > coil? There are actually three.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Resistance checks on inductors is kinda iffy.
> For the secondary of an ignition coil,it is usable because of the large
> number of turns to get the HV,but if turns close to one end short,the
> resistance change will not be noticeable,but the short will still affect
> the coil's operation.
>
> Dick Smith Electronics makes a coil ringer for TV flybacks that IMO would
> be effective in testing an auto ignition coil,although I've never used one
> or tried it.(same principle;TV flyback and auto ignition coil.)
>

Be careful testing a transformer in that type of setup, because the
frequency and duty cycle of the TV flyback driver is a lot higher than
that of a car. The car's coil may not be able to take it.

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote
> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
> > I would think such a coil failure would show up on a resistance check
> > of the coil. Sprog, did you do the manual's resistance check of the
> > coil? There are actually three.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Resistance checks on inductors is kinda iffy.
> For the secondary of an ignition coil,it is usable because of the large
> number of turns to get the HV,but if turns close to one end short,the
> resistance change will not be noticeable,but the short will still affect
> the coil's operation.

Makes good sense.

Also, I messed up. There are only two prescribed coil resistance tests for
the 1990 Civic.

> Dick Smith Electronics makes a coil ringer for TV flybacks that IMO would
> be effective in testing an auto ignition coil,although I've never used one
> or tried it.(same principle;TV flyback and auto ignition coil.)

"Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1130973746.797412.133260@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
>> news:Ot6af.4843$yX2.4436@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net:
>>
>> > "Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
>> >> duckbill wrote:
>> >> > You have done some very good work so far. I had a similar
>> >> > problem with
>> > a
>> >> > 95 Civic after doing a valve adjustment. By just cranking it
>> >> > just a few turns in my driveway with the secondary of the coil
>> >> > disconnected, I
>> > fried
>> >> > the coil and ignitor. You should always disconnect the primary
>> >> > of the coil or ground the high voltage secondary before
>> >> > cranking. Otherwise the high voltage creates its own path
>> >> > through the coil shorting it out internally. It seems it's not
>> >> > unusual for a coil and ignitor to go out together as confirmed
>> >> > to me, after the fact, by a dealer and an independent shop. I
>> >> > did not believe my coil could be bad too, but when
>> > I
>> >> > checked it out again with a high quality ohm meter, it was just
>> >> > outside the spec limits. If not the coil, I would be looking at
>> >> > that main relay regardless of clicks, then lastly the ECU. Good
>> >> > luck.
>> >>
>> >> Duckbill actually has a very good point, about the coil:
>> >>
>> >> On my wife's integra, the coil measured fine, but had
>> >> discolorations along where it was close to the bracket. It was
>> >> actually rough in spots, not smooth as one would expect a molded
>> >> part to look like. I suspect that it may have arced through in
>> >> those places.
>> >
>> > This part of Tegger's FAQ seems appropriate:
>> >
>> > http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/badse...al-arcing.html
>> >
>> > Note Mike's comment that the coil "zap spot" is barely noticeable
>> > in ordinary lighting.
>> >
>> > Click on "back to top" of this site to see more discussion of this.
>> >
>> > I would think such a coil failure would show up on a resistance
>> > check of the coil. Sprog, did you do the manual's resistance check
>> > of the coil? There are actually three.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Resistance checks on inductors is kinda iffy.
>> For the secondary of an ignition coil,it is usable because of the
>> large number of turns to get the HV,but if turns close to one end
>> short,the resistance change will not be noticeable,but the short will
>> still affect the coil's operation.
>>
>> Dick Smith Electronics makes a coil ringer for TV flybacks that IMO
>> would be effective in testing an auto ignition coil,although I've
>> never used one or tried it.(same principle;TV flyback and auto
>> ignition coil.)
>>
>
> Be careful testing a transformer in that type of setup, because the
> frequency and duty cycle of the TV flyback driver is a lot higher than
> that of a car. The car's coil may not be able to take it.
>

It's based on the "ringing" test for inductors.Pulse it and check for a
decaying ringing waveform,so it would not stress the ignition coil.

Here's a link for more info;
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/fbt.htm

It only applies 650mv to the coil,so it's not going to hurt an auto ign
coil.It counts the number of 'rings' after the pulse,indicates it on a LED
bargraph display,and amazingly,only costs $30 AUS dollars(kit form).
I've not built or used one,so I can't say for certain it would work,but his
ESR meter was an easy build and WELL worth the money.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik wrote:
> "Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:1130973746.797412.133260@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:
>
> > Jim Yanik wrote:
> >> "Elle" <honda.lioness@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in
> >> news:Ot6af.4843$yX2.4436@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net:
> >>
> >> > "Remco" <whybcuz@yahoo.com> wrote
> >> >> duckbill wrote:
> >> >> > You have done some very good work so far. I had a similar
> >> >> > problem with
> >> > a
> >> >> > 95 Civic after doing a valve adjustment. By just cranking it
> >> >> > just a few turns in my driveway with the secondary of the coil
> >> >> > disconnected, I
> >> > fried
> >> >> > the coil and ignitor. You should always disconnect the primary
> >> >> > of the coil or ground the high voltage secondary before
> >> >> > cranking. Otherwise the high voltage creates its own path
> >> >> > through the coil shorting it out internally. It seems it's not
> >> >> > unusual for a coil and ignitor to go out together as confirmed
> >> >> > to me, after the fact, by a dealer and an independent shop. I
> >> >> > did not believe my coil could be bad too, but when
> >> > I
> >> >> > checked it out again with a high quality ohm meter, it was just
> >> >> > outside the spec limits. If not the coil, I would be looking at
> >> >> > that main relay regardless of clicks, then lastly the ECU. Good
> >> >> > luck.
> >> >>
> >> >> Duckbill actually has a very good point, about the coil:
> >> >>
> >> >> On my wife's integra, the coil measured fine, but had
> >> >> discolorations along where it was close to the bracket. It was
> >> >> actually rough in spots, not smooth as one would expect a molded
> >> >> part to look like. I suspect that it may have arced through in
> >> >> those places.
> >> >
> >> > This part of Tegger's FAQ seems appropriate:
> >> >
> >> > http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/badse...al-arcing.html
> >> >
> >> > Note Mike's comment that the coil "zap spot" is barely noticeable
> >> > in ordinary lighting.
> >> >
> >> > Click on "back to top" of this site to see more discussion of this.
> >> >
> >> > I would think such a coil failure would show up on a resistance
> >> > check of the coil. Sprog, did you do the manual's resistance check
> >> > of the coil? There are actually three.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Resistance checks on inductors is kinda iffy.
> >> For the secondary of an ignition coil,it is usable because of the
> >> large number of turns to get the HV,but if turns close to one end
> >> short,the resistance change will not be noticeable,but the short will
> >> still affect the coil's operation.
> >>
> >> Dick Smith Electronics makes a coil ringer for TV flybacks that IMO
> >> would be effective in testing an auto ignition coil,although I've
> >> never used one or tried it.(same principle;TV flyback and auto
> >> ignition coil.)
> >>
> >
> > Be careful testing a transformer in that type of setup, because the
> > frequency and duty cycle of the TV flyback driver is a lot higher than
> > that of a car. The car's coil may not be able to take it.
> >
>
> It's based on the "ringing" test for inductors.Pulse it and check for a
> decaying ringing waveform,so it would not stress the ignition coil.
>
> Here's a link for more info;
> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/fbt.htm
>
> It only applies 650mv to the coil,so it's not going to hurt an auto ign
> coil.It counts the number of 'rings' after the pulse,indicates it on a LED
> bargraph display,and amazingly,only costs $30 AUS dollars(kit form).
> I've not built or used one,so I can't say for certain it would work,but his
> ESR meter was an easy build and WELL worth the money.
>
>

Clever!

When I lived in Europe I had access to Dick Smith kits. They had some
cool gadgets on could build, even then. Haven't seen them here in the
US

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9702ED9FF6CDBjyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
> It's based on the "ringing" test for inductors.Pulse it and check for a
> decaying ringing waveform,so it would not stress the ignition coil.
>
> Here's a link for more info;
> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/fbt.htm
>
> It only applies 650mv to the coil,so it's not going to hurt an auto ign
> coil.It counts the number of 'rings' after the pulse,indicates it on a LED
> bargraph display,and amazingly,only costs $30 AUS dollars(kit form).
> I've not built or used one,so I can't say for certain it would work,but
> his
> ESR meter was an easy build and WELL worth the money.
>
Sounds like a winner! I have used a Sencore "Z meter" that also had a
ringing test and it was one of my favorite features. You get an answer you
can really hang your hat on. Nice to see it in a $30 AUS device instead of a
$1000 US device.

Mike