Honda Car Forum

Hachiroku wrote:

> And that methanol is made from Corn (methanol is actually a
> form of grain alchohol, or "White Lightening" or "Moonshine")

Uhm, no. Methanol ("wood alcohol") is the simplest alcohol, ethanol ("grain
alcohol") is the second simplest. They are distinct substances, and methanol
is quite toxic. Don't be giving people ideas that they should drink methanol
to get drunk... they'll loose their eyesight or worse.

(Probably more than you wanted to know at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol)

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:14:08 +0000, tomb wrote:

> Hachiroku wrote:
>
>> And that methanol is made from Corn (methanol is actually a
>> form of grain alchohol, or "White Lightening" or "Moonshine")
>
> Uhm, no. Methanol ("wood alcohol") is the simplest alcohol, ethanol ("grain
> alcohol") is the second simplest. They are distinct substances, and methanol
> is quite toxic. Don't be giving people ideas that they should drink methanol
> to get drunk... they'll loose their eyesight or worse.


Yeah, I realized that after I posted it!

But after a few bouts withj Everclear, I'll try anything once!


>
> (Probably more than you wanted to know at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol)

In article <I--dnfMLo8T2NM7eRVn-3g@speakeasy.net>, jim beam
<nospam@example.net> wrote:

> Brent Secombe wrote:
> > In article <pan.2005.10.17.04.43.52.586135@ae86.gts>, Hachiroku
> > <Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:06:12 -0700, jim beam wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hachiroku wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to the
> >>>>Indy Racing League (IRL)
> >>>>
> >>>>Interesting. Although previous Indianapolis 500's have had their share of
> >>>>British engines as well as American iron, the 2006 Indy 500 will most
> >>>>likely be a fight between the best from Honda and Toyota. There may be a
> >>>>stray entry of an older car with a Chevy, but IRL is now All Japanese when
> >>>>it comes to engines!
> >>>
> >>>do you find it ironic?
> >>
> >>Not really. The Japanese have been creeping into the world racing scenes,
> >>and their engines have been getting better and better. I am curious as to
> >>why Cevy dropped the ball, though.
> >
> >
> > Still, it seems an odd digression from a quest for more economical
> > engines, doesn't it?
>
> paradoxically, it's not. to get every watt out of a racing engine, you
> have to design to get that energy out of the fuel. in terms of energy
> output per liter burned, F1 engines are some of the most efficient in
> the world. and it's no coincidence that F1 racing is also fuel limited.
> that technology is directly usable in the world of domestic economy
> engine design. whether detroit /chooses/ to use it is another matter
> entirely. look at the specific output [watts per liter] of honda &
> toyota engines and compare them with detroit hunkojunks.

Jim, that's a cogent and articulate reply. Thank you.

Brent

In article <pan.2005.10.17.13.41.27.970637@ae86.gts>, Hachiroku
<Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:11:58 -0400, Brent Secombe wrote:
>
> > In article <pan.2005.10.17.04.43.52.586135@ae86.gts>, Hachiroku
> > <Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:06:12 -0700, jim beam wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hachiroku wrote:
> >> >> After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to
> >> >> the
> >> >> Indy Racing League (IRL)
> >> >>
> >> >> Interesting. Although previous Indianapolis 500's have had their share
> >> >> of
> >> >> British engines as well as American iron, the 2006 Indy 500 will most
> >> >> likely be a fight between the best from Honda and Toyota. There may be a
> >> >> stray entry of an older car with a Chevy, but IRL is now All Japanese
> >> >> when
> >> >> it comes to engines!
> >> >
> >> > do you find it ironic?
> >>
> >> Not really. The Japanese have been creeping into the world racing scenes,
> >> and their engines have been getting better and better. I am curious as to
> >> why Cevy dropped the ball, though.
> >
> > Still, it seems an odd digression from a quest for more economical
> > engines, doesn't it? As the public becomes sensitised to squandering
> > our grandchildren's energy supplies, will corporations benefit by being
> > associated with the waste?
> >
> > Brent
>
>
> Hmmmm....interesting take on the problem.
>
> Except, you DO know these engines run on Methanol, right? And that
> methanol is made from Corn (methanol is actually a form of grain alchohol,
> or "White Lightening" or "Moonshine")
>
> If anything, the means to ectract 700+ HP from an engine running Grain
> Alchohol should be commended. Add to that the fact they've been doing it
> for almost 20 years now, and the real question SHOULD be, why aren't we
> developing this technology for street cars.
>
> Now, at the current time, methanol is VERY expensive, mush more than
> gasoline. IIRC, the current price for methanol racing fuel is about $6 per
> gallon, but this is a purely refined form.
>
> If the technology came into use more, there is no reason why the car
> you're driving couldn't un on 25-30% methanol. And if the government had
> taken note, instead of playing ball with the fuel companies for the last
> 20 years, there would have been plenty of oil if there had been more
> widespread ethanol replacement. I have been running a 10% mixture of
> gasoline and ethanol in one of my cars for almost 20 years now (I seek the
> stuff out!) and it still seems to be running just fine. Now the IRL has
> announced it will be running an Ethanol/Methanol mix beginning for the
> year 2006.
>
> ALL CART/Champ Cars/IRL cars have been running on Methanol since 1979 or
> 1980.
>
> Actually, I'm wrong. From the IRL page:
> "Methanol has been the fuel of choice in cars running in the Indianapolis
> 500 since 1965. A fatal accident involving drivers Eddie Sachs and Dave
> MacDonald on the second lap of the 1964 Indianapolis 500 prompted the
> switch."
>
>
> http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/acti...s-alcohol.html
>
> http://www.mocorn.org/news/2005/News...ase3-03-05.htm
>
> http://www.g-forse.com/archive/news356_e.html

Thank you. No, I didn't know about the methanol. I don't follow racing.
I'm pleased to learn that the fuel is from a renewable resource.

I was born completely ignorant, and I'm still playing catch-up. :-)

Brent

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:19:40 -0400, Brent Secombe wrote:

> In article <pan.2005.10.17.13.41.27.970637@ae86.gts>, Hachiroku
> <Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:11:58 -0400, Brent Secombe wrote:
>>
>> > In article <pan.2005.10.17.04.43.52.586135@ae86.gts>, Hachiroku
>> > <Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:06:12 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Hachiroku wrote:
>> >> >> After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> Indy Racing League (IRL)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Interesting. Although previous Indianapolis 500's have had their share
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> British engines as well as American iron, the 2006 Indy 500 will most
>> >> >> likely be a fight between the best from Honda and Toyota. There may be a
>> >> >> stray entry of an older car with a Chevy, but IRL is now All Japanese
>> >> >> when
>> >> >> it comes to engines!
>> >> >
>> >> > do you find it ironic?
>> >>
>> >> Not really. The Japanese have been creeping into the world racing scenes,
>> >> and their engines have been getting better and better. I am curious as to
>> >> why Cevy dropped the ball, though.
>> >
>> > Still, it seems an odd digression from a quest for more economical
>> > engines, doesn't it? As the public becomes sensitised to squandering
>> > our grandchildren's energy supplies, will corporations benefit by being
>> > associated with the waste?
>> >
>> > Brent
>>
>>
>> Hmmmm....interesting take on the problem.
>>
>> Except, you DO know these engines run on Methanol, right? And that
>> methanol is made from Corn (methanol is actually a form of grain alchohol,
>> or "White Lightening" or "Moonshine")
>>
>> If anything, the means to ectract 700+ HP from an engine running Grain
>> Alchohol should be commended. Add to that the fact they've been doing it
>> for almost 20 years now, and the real question SHOULD be, why aren't we
>> developing this technology for street cars.
>>
>> Now, at the current time, methanol is VERY expensive, mush more than
>> gasoline. IIRC, the current price for methanol racing fuel is about $6 per
>> gallon, but this is a purely refined form.
>>
>> If the technology came into use more, there is no reason why the car
>> you're driving couldn't un on 25-30% methanol. And if the government had
>> taken note, instead of playing ball with the fuel companies for the last
>> 20 years, there would have been plenty of oil if there had been more
>> widespread ethanol replacement. I have been running a 10% mixture of
>> gasoline and ethanol in one of my cars for almost 20 years now (I seek the
>> stuff out!) and it still seems to be running just fine. Now the IRL has
>> announced it will be running an Ethanol/Methanol mix beginning for the
>> year 2006.
>>
>> ALL CART/Champ Cars/IRL cars have been running on Methanol since 1979 or
>> 1980.
>>
>> Actually, I'm wrong. From the IRL page:
>> "Methanol has been the fuel of choice in cars running in the Indianapolis
>> 500 since 1965. A fatal accident involving drivers Eddie Sachs and Dave
>> MacDonald on the second lap of the 1964 Indianapolis 500 prompted the
>> switch."
>>
>>
>> http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/acti...s-alcohol.html
>>
>> http://www.mocorn.org/news/2005/News...ase3-03-05.htm
>>
>> http://www.g-forse.com/archive/news356_e.html
>
> Thank you. No, I didn't know about the methanol. I don't follow racing.
> I'm pleased to learn that the fuel is from a renewable resource.
>
> I was born completely ignorant, and I'm still playing catch-up. :-)
>
> Brent

Gee, I think I was too...I can't remember back that far!

Yes, it is a renewable resource, and I wish they would take what they have
learned and apply it to our street cars!

But the oil companies are powerful, and you'd THINK they would be at the
leading edge of research (actually, they probably ARE but are milking the
Dino sources for all they are worth!) and set themselves up as the
'saviours' with the new renewable energy! "You saw it here first!"

Surprising they aren't...

Hachiroku wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:19:40 -0400, Brent Secombe wrote:
>
>
>>In article <pan.2005.10.17.13.41.27.970637@ae86.gts>, Hachiroku
>><Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:11:58 -0400, Brent Secombe wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>In article <pan.2005.10.17.04.43.52.586135@ae86.gts>, Hachiroku
>>>><Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:06:12 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hachiroku wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>Indy Racing League (IRL)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Interesting. Although previous Indianapolis 500's have had their share
>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>British engines as well as American iron, the 2006 Indy 500 will most
>>>>>>>likely be a fight between the best from Honda and Toyota. There may be a
>>>>>>>stray entry of an older car with a Chevy, but IRL is now All Japanese
>>>>>>>when
>>>>>>>it comes to engines!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>do you find it ironic?
>>>>>
>>>>>Not really. The Japanese have been creeping into the world racing scenes,
>>>>>and their engines have been getting better and better. I am curious as to
>>>>>why Cevy dropped the ball, though.
>>>>
>>>>Still, it seems an odd digression from a quest for more economical
>>>>engines, doesn't it? As the public becomes sensitised to squandering
>>>>our grandchildren's energy supplies, will corporations benefit by being
>>>>associated with the waste?
>>>>
>>>>Brent
>>>
>>>
>>>Hmmmm....interesting take on the problem.
>>>
>>>Except, you DO know these engines run on Methanol, right? And that
>>>methanol is made from Corn (methanol is actually a form of grain alchohol,
>>>or "White Lightening" or "Moonshine")
>>>
>>>If anything, the means to ectract 700+ HP from an engine running Grain
>>>Alchohol should be commended. Add to that the fact they've been doing it
>>>for almost 20 years now, and the real question SHOULD be, why aren't we
>>>developing this technology for street cars.
>>>
>>>Now, at the current time, methanol is VERY expensive, mush more than
>>>gasoline. IIRC, the current price for methanol racing fuel is about $6 per
>>>gallon, but this is a purely refined form.
>>>
>>>If the technology came into use more, there is no reason why the car
>>>you're driving couldn't un on 25-30% methanol. And if the government had
>>>taken note, instead of playing ball with the fuel companies for the last
>>>20 years, there would have been plenty of oil if there had been more
>>>widespread ethanol replacement. I have been running a 10% mixture of
>>>gasoline and ethanol in one of my cars for almost 20 years now (I seek the
>>>stuff out!) and it still seems to be running just fine. Now the IRL has
>>>announced it will be running an Ethanol/Methanol mix beginning for the
>>>year 2006.
>>>
>>>ALL CART/Champ Cars/IRL cars have been running on Methanol since 1979 or
>>>1980.
>>>
>>>Actually, I'm wrong. From the IRL page:
>>>"Methanol has been the fuel of choice in cars running in the Indianapolis
>>>500 since 1965. A fatal accident involving drivers Eddie Sachs and Dave
>>>MacDonald on the second lap of the 1964 Indianapolis 500 prompted the
>>>switch."
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/acti...s-alcohol.html
>>>
>>>http://www.mocorn.org/news/2005/News...ase3-03-05.htm
>>>
>>>http://www.g-forse.com/archive/news356_e.html
>>
>>Thank you. No, I didn't know about the methanol. I don't follow racing.
>>I'm pleased to learn that the fuel is from a renewable resource.
>>
>>I was born completely ignorant, and I'm still playing catch-up. :-)
>>
>>Brent
>
>
> Gee, I think I was too...I can't remember back that far!
>
> Yes, it is a renewable resource, and I wish they would take what they have
> learned and apply it to our street cars!

i wouldn't be too happy if they did. lower calorific value of
enthanol/methanol means lower output and lower mpg's. unadulterated
gasoline is the way to go. cheaper too.

>
> But the oil companies are powerful, and you'd THINK they would be at the
> leading edge of research (actually, they probably ARE but are milking the
> Dino sources for all they are worth!) and set themselves up as the
> 'saviours' with the new renewable energy! "You saw it here first!"
>
> Surprising they aren't...

> Gee, I think I was too...I can't remember back that far!
>
> Yes, it is a renewable resource, and I wish they would take what they have
> learned and apply it to our street cars!
>
> But the oil companies are powerful, and you'd THINK they would be at the
> leading edge of research (actually, they probably ARE but are milking the
> Dino sources for all they are worth!) and set themselves up as the
> 'saviours' with the new renewable energy! "You saw it here first!"
>
> Surprising they aren't...

I was in the petro research business for 26 years. Company purchased a fleet
of electric cars in ~1980 and one was mine (and what a POS). We had solar
powered gas stations, had a system for making ethanol from oil with high
rates of conversion and we had an automobile test facility with a wind
tunnel (and no, no secret carburetor). The dirty secret to energy is that
the oil co's sell what customers want to buy. Selling gasoline is better
than dealing drugs; market is bigger and it's legal. The plan was in '75 to
move drivers out of their Eldorados with 472 ci motors into Vegas and Pintos
(to help Ford and GM increase their market. Imagine us being in cahoots with
Ford and GM ). Those pesky drivers purchased Hondas and Toyotas instead!
Many of our customers told us the Government should make big cars illegal
and manged to convince their legislators to adopt a 55mph limit. That wasn't
good for Big Oil. The SUV's were a Godsend for the refining dept. We could't
make money in the early 90's from the refining operations. The Explorer
changed all that. As long as an F350 dually with a huge engine is considerd
a high-status grocery-getter, we are all doomed. I wish Honda sold a Civic
with a 200 hp tdi diesel in the USA. Fast around town and great mpg on the
road (plus being a Honda). 2 things an individual can do to make the world
a better place: Live close to your job and don't drive an RV on vacation.

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:01:07 -0700, jim beam wrote:

> Hachiroku wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:19:40 -0400, Brent Secombe wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <pan.2005.10.17.13.41.27.970637@ae86.gts>, Hachiroku
>>><Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:11:58 -0400, Brent Secombe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In article <pan.2005.10.17.04.43.52.586135@ae86.gts>, Hachiroku
>>>>><Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:06:12 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hachiroku wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to
>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>Indy Racing League (IRL)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Interesting. Although previous Indianapolis 500's have had their share
>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>British engines as well as American iron, the 2006 Indy 500 will most
>>>>>>>>likely be a fight between the best from Honda and Toyota. There may be a
>>>>>>>>stray entry of an older car with a Chevy, but IRL is now All Japanese
>>>>>>>>when
>>>>>>>>it comes to engines!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>do you find it ironic?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Not really. The Japanese have been creeping into the world racing scenes,
>>>>>>and their engines have been getting better and better. I am curious as to
>>>>>>why Cevy dropped the ball, though.
>>>>>
>>>>>Still, it seems an odd digression from a quest for more economical
>>>>>engines, doesn't it? As the public becomes sensitised to squandering
>>>>>our grandchildren's energy supplies, will corporations benefit by being
>>>>>associated with the waste?
>>>>>
>>>>>Brent
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hmmmm....interesting take on the problem.
>>>>
>>>>Except, you DO know these engines run on Methanol, right? And that
>>>>methanol is made from Corn (methanol is actually a form of grain alchohol,
>>>>or "White Lightening" or "Moonshine")
>>>>
>>>>If anything, the means to ectract 700+ HP from an engine running Grain
>>>>Alchohol should be commended. Add to that the fact they've been doing it
>>>>for almost 20 years now, and the real question SHOULD be, why aren't we
>>>>developing this technology for street cars.
>>>>
>>>>Now, at the current time, methanol is VERY expensive, mush more than
>>>>gasoline. IIRC, the current price for methanol racing fuel is about $6 per
>>>>gallon, but this is a purely refined form.
>>>>
>>>>If the technology came into use more, there is no reason why the car
>>>>you're driving couldn't un on 25-30% methanol. And if the government had
>>>>taken note, instead of playing ball with the fuel companies for the last
>>>>20 years, there would have been plenty of oil if there had been more
>>>>widespread ethanol replacement. I have been running a 10% mixture of
>>>>gasoline and ethanol in one of my cars for almost 20 years now (I seek the
>>>>stuff out!) and it still seems to be running just fine. Now the IRL has
>>>>announced it will be running an Ethanol/Methanol mix beginning for the
>>>>year 2006.
>>>>
>>>>ALL CART/Champ Cars/IRL cars have been running on Methanol since 1979 or
>>>>1980.
>>>>
>>>>Actually, I'm wrong. From the IRL page:
>>>>"Methanol has been the fuel of choice in cars running in the Indianapolis
>>>>500 since 1965. A fatal accident involving drivers Eddie Sachs and Dave
>>>>MacDonald on the second lap of the 1964 Indianapolis 500 prompted the
>>>>switch."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/acti...s-alcohol.html
>>>>
>>>>http://www.mocorn.org/news/2005/News...ase3-03-05.htm
>>>>
>>>>http://www.g-forse.com/archive/news356_e.html
>>>
>>>Thank you. No, I didn't know about the methanol. I don't follow racing.
>>>I'm pleased to learn that the fuel is from a renewable resource.
>>>
>>>I was born completely ignorant, and I'm still playing catch-up. :-)
>>>
>>>Brent
>>
>>
>> Gee, I think I was too...I can't remember back that far!
>>
>> Yes, it is a renewable resource, and I wish they would take what they have
>> learned and apply it to our street cars!
>
> i wouldn't be too happy if they did. lower calorific value of
> enthanol/methanol means lower output and lower mpg's. unadulterated
> gasoline is the way to go. cheaper too.

I dunno...those guys are able to squeeze 700 HP out of a 10 cylinder
engine running the stuff...

I think a couple hundred HP shouldn't be too hard.

The only problem with ethanol? Think of the demands put on the growers of
corn, wheat and soybeans, the major sources of ethanol. There have been
some BAD years for growers, and if we were completely dependant on
ethanol, that could be a problem. Some years there would be less corn on
the table because we'd be putting all of it in our tanks.

But, then again, perhaps we could end the subsidies where we pay growers
NOT to grow crops! And I don't think the farmers would be having all the
tough times they have now, because ALL their output would be in demand
instead of overproduction. Any crop thet can produce ethanol would
probably not go to waste in silos (probably be a GOOD thing, storing it
for a year!)

If they can get the engines to run with a 20-40% ethanol mix, and get the
production of ethanol to where it doesn't take MORE energy to produce than
you get, then I see a win-win situation here.

>
>>
>> But the oil companies are powerful, and you'd THINK they would be at the
>> leading edge of research (actually, they probably ARE but are milking the
>> Dino sources for all they are worth!) and set themselves up as the
>> 'saviours' with the new renewable energy! "You saw it here first!"
>>
>> Surprising they aren't...

In article <CaqdnRPPBNAOHMneRVn-hw@speakeasy.net>, jim beam
<nospam@example.net> wrote:

> Hachiroku wrote:
> > On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:19:40 -0400, Brent Secombe wrote:
> >
> >
> >>In article <pan.2005.10.17.13.41.27.970637@ae86.gts>, Hachiroku
> >><Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:11:58 -0400, Brent Secombe wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>In article <pan.2005.10.17.04.43.52.586135@ae86.gts>, Hachiroku
> >>>><Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 19:06:12 -0700, jim beam wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Hachiroku wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>After today's race, Chevrolet dropped out as a supplier of engines to
> >>>>>>>the
> >>>>>>>Indy Racing League (IRL)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Interesting. Although previous Indianapolis 500's have had their share
> >>>>>>>of
> >>>>>>>British engines as well as American iron, the 2006 Indy 500 will most
> >>>>>>>likely be a fight between the best from Honda and Toyota. There may be
> >>>>>>>a
> >>>>>>>stray entry of an older car with a Chevy, but IRL is now All Japanese
> >>>>>>>when
> >>>>>>>it comes to engines!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>do you find it ironic?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Not really. The Japanese have been creeping into the world racing scenes,
> >>>>>and their engines have been getting better and better. I am curious as to
> >>>>>why Cevy dropped the ball, though.
> >>>>
> >>>>Still, it seems an odd digression from a quest for more economical
> >>>>engines, doesn't it? As the public becomes sensitised to squandering
> >>>>our grandchildren's energy supplies, will corporations benefit by being
> >>>>associated with the waste?
> >>>>
> >>>>Brent
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Hmmmm....interesting take on the problem.
> >>>
> >>>Except, you DO know these engines run on Methanol, right? And that
> >>>methanol is made from Corn (methanol is actually a form of grain alchohol,
> >>>or "White Lightening" or "Moonshine")
> >>>
> >>>If anything, the means to ectract 700+ HP from an engine running Grain
> >>>Alchohol should be commended. Add to that the fact they've been doing it
> >>>for almost 20 years now, and the real question SHOULD be, why aren't we
> >>>developing this technology for street cars.
> >>>
> >>>Now, at the current time, methanol is VERY expensive, mush more than
> >>>gasoline. IIRC, the current price for methanol racing fuel is about $6 per
> >>>gallon, but this is a purely refined form.
> >>>
> >>>If the technology came into use more, there is no reason why the car
> >>>you're driving couldn't un on 25-30% methanol. And if the government had
> >>>taken note, instead of playing ball with the fuel companies for the last
> >>>20 years, there would have been plenty of oil if there had been more
> >>>widespread ethanol replacement. I have been running a 10% mixture of
> >>>gasoline and ethanol in one of my cars for almost 20 years now (I seek the
> >>>stuff out!) and it still seems to be running just fine. Now the IRL has
> >>>announced it will be running an Ethanol/Methanol mix beginning for the
> >>>year 2006.
> >>>
> >>>ALL CART/Champ Cars/IRL cars have been running on Methanol since 1979 or
> >>>1980.
> >>>
> >>>Actually, I'm wrong. From the IRL page:
> >>>"Methanol has been the fuel of choice in cars running in the Indianapolis
> >>>500 since 1965. A fatal accident involving drivers Eddie Sachs and Dave
> >>>MacDonald on the second lap of the 1964 Indianapolis 500 prompted the
> >>>switch."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/acti...s-alcohol.html
> >>>
> >>>http://www.mocorn.org/news/2005/News...ase3-03-05.htm
> >>>
> >>>http://www.g-forse.com/archive/news356_e.html
> >>
> >>Thank you. No, I didn't know about the methanol. I don't follow racing.
> >>I'm pleased to learn that the fuel is from a renewable resource.
> >>
> >>I was born completely ignorant, and I'm still playing catch-up. :-)
> >>
> >>Brent
> >
> >
> > Gee, I think I was too...I can't remember back that far!
> >
> > Yes, it is a renewable resource, and I wish they would take what they have
> > learned and apply it to our street cars!
>
> i wouldn't be too happy if they did. lower calorific value of
> enthanol/methanol means lower output and lower mpg's. unadulterated
> gasoline is the way to go. cheaper too.

I guess it comes down to miles per gallon-of-what. We postponed
breeding new dinosaurs, so eventually we'll be stuck with energy from
non-petro sources. I bet you're right about lower mpg's; but if it
comes down to a choice between 30 mpg on a fuel we've exhausted or 10
mpg on distilled dandelions, we'll have to go with the dandelions...

.... in which case Scott's will come out with a lawn product that gets
rid of all that ugly grass among the dandelions. :-)

Brent

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:20:07 -0500, Enrico Fermi wrote:

>
>> Gee, I think I was too...I can't remember back that far!
>>
>> Yes, it is a renewable resource, and I wish they would take what they have
>> learned and apply it to our street cars!
>>
>> But the oil companies are powerful, and you'd THINK they would be at the
>> leading edge of research (actually, they probably ARE but are milking the
>> Dino sources for all they are worth!) and set themselves up as the
>> 'saviours' with the new renewable energy! "You saw it here first!"
>>
>> Surprising they aren't...
>
> I was in the petro research business for 26 years. Company purchased a fleet
> of electric cars in ~1980 and one was mine (and what a POS). We had solar
> powered gas stations, had a system for making ethanol from oil with high
> rates of conversion and we had an automobile test facility with a wind
> tunnel (and no, no secret carburetor). The dirty secret to energy is that
> the oil co's sell what customers want to buy. Selling gasoline is better
> than dealing drugs; market is bigger and it's legal. The plan was in '75 to
> move drivers out of their Eldorados with 472 ci motors into Vegas and Pintos
> (to help Ford and GM increase their market. Imagine us being in cahoots with
> Ford and GM ). Those pesky drivers purchased Hondas and Toyotas instead!
> Many of our customers told us the Government should make big cars illegal
> and manged to convince their legislators to adopt a 55mph limit. That wasn't
> good for Big Oil. The SUV's were a Godsend for the refining dept. We could't
> make money in the early 90's from the refining operations. The Explorer
> changed all that. As long as an F350 dually with a huge engine is considerd
> a high-status grocery-getter, we are all doomed. I wish Honda sold a Civic
> with a 200 hp tdi diesel in the USA. Fast around town and great mpg on the
> road (plus being a Honda). 2 things an individual can do to make the world
> a better place: Live close to your job and don't drive an RV on vacation.


Unfortunately, most of my jobs have been at least 20 miles away, and a
long time I was driving over 50 one way! Wife didn't want to move, see?

But then I buy cars I like, and like to drive, so it's a 50/50 deal.

But with the price of gas now...

But, what's the deal with Gasoline? I would buy ethanol if it were
available. And I appreciate the info on the conversion! We're told by the
media it takes more energy to make ethanol, which returns less energy
back! So, this is bunk, eh?

And, we started buying Toyotas before the Energy Crisis; my Mom wante a
small car similar to her Chevy II Nova (THERE was a car, GM should have
never stopped making them!) That was it for us; we have pretty much been a
Toyota family ever since!

But I digress...and i also agree with your Grocery Getter comment; some
people NEED a big truck, while others could get by with a Tacoma; it's the
Image thing. And I hope the popularity of the SUV comes to and end in
short order...these things SUCK! Buy a Station Wagon! (Subaru makes a
bunch of AWD models if you don't like the Matrix!