Honda Car Forum

doug wrote:
> There is one in every group. I guess you're him.

eh? so next time you fly, is it going to be ok with you if the pilot
doesn't bother to calculate the fuel load against the destination
distance? how about the inspection crew only bothering to look for
fatigue cracks when they "felt" it was time? alternatively, imagine
you're the fleet manager for a large haulage company. how are you going
to formulate your maintenance schedules? will your customers mind if
you charge them extra because you "feel" you need to spend 3 times as
much on lubes as your competitors?

bottom line, there's some method to this madness. disregard is both
expensive and stupid.


>
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:PJCdnZ2dnZ1cA5DFnZ2dnYULgt6dnZ2dRVn-zZ2dnZ0@speakeasy.net...
>
>>doug wrote:
>>
>>>Waste of good oil? Hardly. If you want to run oil - even Mobil 1 - for
>>>10,000 miles in your engine, be my guest. Some day in the future, the
>>>dealership will welcome you with open arms. The demands of driving in
>>>most areas today, e.g., frequent starts, stop and go driving, combined
>>>with the higher level of design, machine tolerances and assembly of
>>>modern engines, require a much higher quality level for lubricants. You
>>>are correct that current dino-based oils are much better today than 20
>>>years ago, but the demands placed upon them have significantly increased
>>>also. If you think that a sub $2.00 per quart oil is the best option for
>>>YOUR engine, it's your choice.
>>>
>>>doug
>>
>>ok, so which one of you is going to present the technical rationale for
>>this well researched decision of yours? i want numbers.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:xIZSe.13925$QN4.3053@trnddc02...
>>>
>>>
>>>>doug wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Rick
>>>>>
>>>>>Ignore the "manual" mavens and get the service done. One year/8k km is
>>>>>just too long an interval unless you drive long distance trips almost
>>>>>exclusively. I have a 2005 Accord EX I purchased in early May and it
>>>>>just turned 4k miles. I'm changing the oil and filter done this week
>>>>>with the recommended 5W-20, but I'm using Mobil 1, which I use in all of
>>>>>my vehicles and have done so for over 20 years. My schedule is 4 months
>>>>>or 4000 miles, whichever comes first (it's always 4 months, though). I
>>>>>almost always do it myself to keep expenses reasonable, and I've not had
>>>>>any type of engine component failure - ever. Cheap insurance for the
>>>>>engine, better mileage, easier starts in cold weather, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>doug
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It is a shame to waste Mobil-1 on 4 month/4,000 mile oil change
>>>>intervals. You are discarding a lot of perfectly good motor oil way
>>>>before it's time. If you are running a top grade synthetic like that
>>>>there is no reason not to go the full 7,500 mile (V-6) or 10,000 mile (4)
>>>>intervals Honda calls for in it's current vehicles. By using such an
>>>>expensive oil you are already giving yourself a huge safety margin over
>>>>the factory recommendations. In fact, there are plenty of good sub
>>>>$2.00/quart motor oils on the market now which are completely up to the
>>>>job.
>>>>
>>>>Oils, fuels and engines are all light-years better today than they were
>>>>20 years ago.
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:5e2dnUxge9Cdpb3eRVn-qg@speakeasy.net...
> doug wrote:
>> There is one in every group. I guess you're him.
>
> eh? so next time you fly, is it going to be ok with you if the pilot
> doesn't bother to calculate the fuel load against the destination
> distance? how about the inspection crew only bothering to look for
> fatigue cracks when they "felt" it was time? alternatively, imagine
> you're the fleet manager for a large haulage company. how are you going
> to formulate your maintenance schedules? will your customers mind if you
> charge them extra because you "feel" you need to spend 3 times as much on
> lubes as your competitors?

Nope.
Oil analysis.

Did you manage to destroy M1 in 10k miles, Jim?
Or did you just "feel" you did?

Steve Bigelow wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
> news:5e2dnUxge9Cdpb3eRVn-qg@speakeasy.net...
>
>>doug wrote:
>>
>>>There is one in every group. I guess you're him.
>>
>>eh? so next time you fly, is it going to be ok with you if the pilot
>>doesn't bother to calculate the fuel load against the destination
>>distance? how about the inspection crew only bothering to look for
>>fatigue cracks when they "felt" it was time? alternatively, imagine
>>you're the fleet manager for a large haulage company. how are you going
>>to formulate your maintenance schedules? will your customers mind if you
>>charge them extra because you "feel" you need to spend 3 times as much on
>>lubes as your competitors?
>
>
> Nope.
> Oil analysis.

that's the way to answer the scheuling question.

>
> Did you manage to destroy M1 in 10k miles, Jim?
> Or did you just "feel" you did?

why are you asking me that question? i'm not the one defending 4k mobil
1 change schedule.

Thank you for proving my point with your inane diatribe. As I said, there's
one in every group.

What you seem incapable of recognizing is that this is my maintenance
schedule for my car. It has nothing to do with airplane pilots, inspection
crews, or fleet managers. Admittedly, though, if they wanted to go beyond
the minimum requirements for me, I'd be grateful. I presume that you
wouldn't be. After all, why do anything beyond the minimum requirements if
you don't have to? Gee, you might save $5 a year.

As for customers being charged extra ??? WTF is that about? In my case, it
costs me less to change the oil myself with Mobil 1 than it does to have it
done by the dealer. So if it costs me $22 per change x 3 changes per year =
$66 versus 2 changes x $31 per change = $62, I'd say that for an extra
$4 annually, I'm getting a hell a deal! As an experienced mechanic, I find
that to be an excellent trade off. Something you don't seem to understand.

>>Did you manage to destroy M1 in 10k miles, Jim?
>>Or did you just "feel" you did?
(Courtesy of Steve Bigelow)

Is he suggesting that you followed your own advice on extended oill change
intervals. LOL





"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:5e2dnUxge9Cdpb3eRVn-qg@speakeasy.net...
> doug wrote:
>> There is one in every group. I guess you're him.
>
> eh? so next time you fly, is it going to be ok with you if the pilot
> doesn't bother to calculate the fuel load against the destination
> distance? how about the inspection crew only bothering to look for
> fatigue cracks when they "felt" it was time? alternatively, imagine
> you're the fleet manager for a large haulage company. how are you going
> to formulate your maintenance schedules? will your customers mind if you
> charge them extra because you "feel" you need to spend 3 times as much on
> lubes as your competitors?
>
> bottom line, there's some method to this madness. disregard is both
> expensive and stupid.
>
>
>>
>> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
>> news:PJCdnZ2dnZ1cA5DFnZ2dnYULgt6dnZ2dRVn-zZ2dnZ0@speakeasy.net...
>>
>>>doug wrote:
>>>
>>>>Waste of good oil? Hardly. If you want to run oil - even Mobil 1 - for
>>>>10,000 miles in your engine, be my guest. Some day in the future, the
>>>>dealership will welcome you with open arms. The demands of driving in
>>>>most areas today, e.g., frequent starts, stop and go driving, combined
>>>>with the higher level of design, machine tolerances and assembly of
>>>>modern engines, require a much higher quality level for lubricants. You
>>>>are correct that current dino-based oils are much better today than 20
>>>>years ago, but the demands placed upon them have significantly increased
>>>>also. If you think that a sub $2.00 per quart oil is the best option for
>>>>YOUR engine, it's your choice.
>>>>
>>>>doug
>>>
>>>ok, so which one of you is going to present the technical rationale for
>>>this well researched decision of yours? i want numbers.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:xIZSe.13925$QN4.3053@trnddc02...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>doug wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Rick
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ignore the "manual" mavens and get the service done. One year/8k km is
>>>>>>just too long an interval unless you drive long distance trips almost
>>>>>>exclusively. I have a 2005 Accord EX I purchased in early May and it
>>>>>>just turned 4k miles. I'm changing the oil and filter done this week
>>>>>>with the recommended 5W-20, but I'm using Mobil 1, which I use in all
>>>>>>of my vehicles and have done so for over 20 years. My schedule is 4
>>>>>>months or 4000 miles, whichever comes first (it's always 4 months,
>>>>>>though). I almost always do it myself to keep expenses reasonable, and
>>>>>>I've not had any type of engine component failure - ever. Cheap
>>>>>>insurance for the engine, better mileage, easier starts in cold
>>>>>>weather, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>doug
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>It is a shame to waste Mobil-1 on 4 month/4,000 mile oil change
>>>>>intervals. You are discarding a lot of perfectly good motor oil way
>>>>>before it's time. If you are running a top grade synthetic like that
>>>>>there is no reason not to go the full 7,500 mile (V-6) or 10,000 mile
>>>>>(4) intervals Honda calls for in it's current vehicles. By using such
>>>>>an expensive oil you are already giving yourself a huge safety margin
>>>>>over the factory recommendations. In fact, there are plenty of good
>>>>>sub $2.00/quart motor oils on the market now which are completely up to
>>>>>the job.
>>>>>
>>>>>Oils, fuels and engines are all light-years better today than they were
>>>>>20 years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>>John
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>

On 9/8/2005 5:18 AM doug spake these words of knowledge:

> There is one in every group. I guess you're him.

No, Doug. I'm him.
Trust me.


RFT!!!
Dave Kelsen
--
.... I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't care.

Does the vehicle in question have an oil life monitor (OLM)? I ask
because my Ridgeline truck has one and the manual states that oil should
be changed (and this is true of the factory fill as well) when the
monitor falls between 15% and 0% oil life expectancy. For most owners
of Ridgelines at least, this service due notice appears between 5,000
and 7,000 miles, depending on driving habits.

The OLM is a better way to determine oil change interval than some
arbitrary mileage/time factor such as 3000 miles/6 months - today's
engines and oil packs are much better than that. Even though the OLM
assumes dino oil is being used, if an extra margin of safety is required
due to "severe" use, it is not necessary as before to do more frequent
changes but rather use better oil such as your GRP III and GRP IV and
synthetics. Chances are the oil interval will be extended as well as
you can go right to the "0%" notice on the monitor, especially with
synthetics.

OLMs are very sophisticated and are not the idiot light mileage counters
of old. Today's OLMs measure how we actually drive and bases it
assumptions on our driving habits. It does so by recording many things
such as temps and engine revolutions and places penalties on things like
short trip, cold start driving. The software is matched to the
particular engine in the car and this is very important.

As far as the factory fill is concerned and when to change it, much
depends on the oil you intend to use. Honda does not use some special
factory oil. It is a Superflo formula made by ExxonMobil but it is
super rich in moly. This moly additive, however, is not in the oil pack
itself but rather is part of the factory assembly lube and when mixed
with the oil provides an extra measure of safety during the critical
break-in period, hence, they want to make sure this formula is in there
for as long as possible. BTW, the old notion of removing engine ware
particles is of no concern these days due to tight tolerances and
improved filtering. This is true at least with the higher tech engines
made by Honda. Now, if Honda knew for a fact you were to change out oil
with something like Havoline dino or Redline synthetic (which are very
rich in moly) you could probably change the factory fill sooner than
recommended - but why do it? Let the monitor be your guide and follow
the manual except only under the most severe driving conditions.

Here is how I plan on doing it with my Ridgeline. I will change factory
fill when the OLM hits 15% with a quality dino such as Havoline or maybe
even a good blend like Mobil Clean 7500 or Motorcraft 5w20. I will use
only the Filtech or Nippon made filters and NOT the Fram/Honeywell. My
second oil change will be with the same oil and then a sample of that
drain will be sent to Blackstone labs for analysis. This will tell me
if my OCIs are timely and if the engine likes the oil I have chosen. If
there is any problem noted, especially in the TBN, which indicates oil
life depletion, I will switch to a good full synthetic and try that. I
have to assume the Accord would also be well served with this kind of
approach.

MARTY

shortspark wrote:
> Does the vehicle in question have an oil life monitor (OLM)? I ask
> because my Ridgeline truck has one and the manual states that oil should
> be changed (and this is true of the factory fill as well) when the
> monitor falls between 15% and 0% oil life expectancy. For most owners
> of Ridgelines at least, this service due notice appears between 5,000
> and 7,000 miles, depending on driving habits.
>
> The OLM is a better way to determine oil change interval than some
> arbitrary mileage/time factor such as 3000 miles/6 months - today's
> engines and oil packs are much better than that. Even though the OLM
> assumes dino oil is being used, if an extra margin of safety is required
> due to "severe" use, it is not necessary as before to do more frequent
> changes but rather use better oil such as your GRP III and GRP IV and
> synthetics. Chances are the oil interval will be extended as well as
> you can go right to the "0%" notice on the monitor, especially with
> synthetics.
>
> OLMs are very sophisticated and are not the idiot light mileage counters
> of old. Today's OLMs measure how we actually drive and bases it
> assumptions on our driving habits. It does so by recording many things
> such as temps and engine revolutions and places penalties on things like
> short trip, cold start driving. The software is matched to the
> particular engine in the car and this is very important.
>
> As far as the factory fill is concerned and when to change it, much
> depends on the oil you intend to use. Honda does not use some special
> factory oil. It is a Superflo formula made by ExxonMobil but it is
> super rich in moly. This moly additive, however, is not in the oil pack
> itself but rather is part of the factory assembly lube and when mixed
> with the oil provides an extra measure of safety during the critical
> break-in period, hence, they want to make sure this formula is in there
> for as long as possible. BTW, the old notion of removing engine ware
> particles is of no concern these days due to tight tolerances and
> improved filtering. This is true at least with the higher tech engines
> made by Honda. Now, if Honda knew for a fact you were to change out oil
> with something like Havoline dino or Redline synthetic (which are very
> rich in moly) you could probably change the factory fill sooner than
> recommended - but why do it? Let the monitor be your guide and follow
> the manual except only under the most severe driving conditions.
>
> Here is how I plan on doing it with my Ridgeline. I will change factory
> fill when the OLM hits 15% with a quality dino such as Havoline or maybe
> even a good blend like Mobil Clean 7500 or Motorcraft 5w20.

i had an entirely negative experience using kotorcraft 5w30 in my civic.
it made it sound rattly, so bad i was wondering if the engine was
shot, and this was compounded by the oil seals leaking lke crazy. and i
mean crazy. at stop lights, clouds of smoke were coming up out from
under the hood where the main seal was leaking onto the exhaust.
castrol gtx quieted up the engine so it sounds "normal" and the leak has
subsided almost completely. doesn't drip on the driveway any more.

neither may of be particular concern on your new vehicle, but any oil
that behaves like that on an older engine does not bode well for your
future.

> I will use
> only the Filtech or Nippon made filters and NOT the Fram/Honeywell. My
> second oil change will be with the same oil and then a sample of that
> drain will be sent to Blackstone labs for analysis. This will tell me
> if my OCIs are timely and if the engine likes the oil I have chosen. If
> there is any problem noted, especially in the TBN, which indicates oil
> life depletion, I will switch to a good full synthetic and try that. I
> have to assume the Accord would also be well served with this kind of
> approach.
>
> MARTY
>

I don't know anything about the Motorcraft 5w30 but I think it is an
entirely different pack than the 5w20. In fact, I do not believe the
5w30 is even a synthetic blend, but rather a plain dino oil. Used oil
analysis reports maintained on the Bobistheoilguy.com site show the
Motorcraft 5w20 to be a terrific engine lubricant.

However, what you intimate is true in that different cars react
differently to driving styles and type of oil used. That is why the $40
spent for a lab analysis of your used oil is money well spent. Of
course in your case no report was necessary, the problem was obvious.
In most cases it is not that noticeable.

MARTY

shortspark wrote:
> I don't know anything about the Motorcraft 5w30 but I think it is an
> entirely different pack than the 5w20. In fact, I do not believe the
> 5w30 is even a synthetic blend, but rather a plain dino oil.

well, when i looked at both bottles in the store, the "info" on the
bottles was the same. besides, what exactly is "synthetic blend"?
there's no recognized definition. other than being a great advertising
tool of course.

> Used oil
> analysis reports maintained on the Bobistheoilguy.com site show the
> Motorcraft 5w20 to be a terrific engine lubricant.

really? i've just looked, but in the couple of minutes i spent poking
about, i don't see it. please post a link so i can read that report too.

>
> However, what you intimate is true in that different cars react
> differently to driving styles and type of oil used. That is why the $40
> spent for a lab analysis of your used oil is money well spent. Of
> course in your case no report was necessary, the problem was obvious.
> In most cases it is not that noticeable.
>
> MARTY
>

Jim, I double checked the Virgin Oil analysis reports at BITOG site and
the 5w20 and the new 5w30 are indeed both synthetic blends. I don't
think this was always the case however and the 5w30 you had such bad
results from may have been the older, straight dino stock - it all
depends when you bought it. Here is a quote from BITOG and the source
is probably Ford but I'm not sure about that:

"This new oil (5w20) has been designed to provide the durability,
cleanliness, and fuel economy expected of a Motorcraft product. Tests
show it outperforms our own SAE 5w30 Super Premium Motor Oil. This oil
has been thoroughly evaluated by Ford. It has performed flawlessly in
over 300 dynamometer durability tests and has undergone vehicle testing,
reaching as high as 250,000 miles in some cases. This is an oil you can
trust. This new oil truly "exceeds the need". Refer to Owners Manual
to determine which vehicles should be serviced with 5w20. Refer to TSB
01-4-7 for a listing of older vehicles which should be serviced with
this oil".

Since then, it appears Motorcraft has introduced their 5w30 as a
synthetic blend as well, however, a look at the Virgin Oil reports for
both shows that they are a little different in their additive packs,
most notably in factors such as zinc, iron and copper although moly
content is nearly the same.

Synthetic blends such as these and others from the Phillips stall
(TropArtic 5w30 and Kendall) are hard to define, as you point out, since
there is no exact measure as to how much dino and how much synthetic
must be in the mix before it qualifies as a "blend". Mobil Clean 7500
is rumored to contain a third synthetic but Mobil always keeps their
formulas close to the vest.

I agree too that "blend" is a marketing tool but they are suppose to
provide longer oil change intervals than straight dino which usually
shows wear at, and should not exceed, about 5000 miles in normal driving
conditions. Full synthetics are said to be able to go 10,000 miles so
somewhere in between seems to make sense for the "blends". They are
usually priced "in between" dino and full synthetic as well.

If you go to the BIOTG site and click on the forums you will find many
different forum links, including Virgin Oil Analysis and Used Oil
Analysis as well as general lubrication and gasoline engine oil forums.
Try doing a search of "Motorcraft 5w20" at any of these and there will
be many threads listed where you can read reviews of analysis reports
and general comments about the Motorcraft oil (there are even some in
which it was used in Honda engines). You will find that, like any oil,
some are good and some not so good but, along with Havoline straight
dino 5w20, you will see that most of the oil geeks there consider it
among the best.

MARTY