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Old 14 Aug 2005, 12:24 pm
Jason
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Posts: n/a
Default article: Plug-in Hybrid

Tweaked hybrid gets 80 miles per gallon


By Tim Molloy Associated Press


CORTE MADERA, Calif. -- Politicians and automakers say a car that can both
reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil
is years or even decades away.

Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage.

It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80
miles-per-gallon secret -- a stack of 18 brick-size batteries that boosts
the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even
less fuel.

Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent
several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car.

Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small
amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra
batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet
at his home in this San Francisco suburb -- all for about a quarter.

He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet
cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have
gotten up to 250 mpg.

They have support not only from environmentalists but also from
conservative foreign-policy hawks who insist Americans fuel terrorism
through their gas guzzling.

And while the technology has existed for three decades, automakers are
beginning to take notice, too.

So far, DaimlerChrysler AG is the only company that has committed to
building its own plug-in hybrids, quietly pledging to make up to 40 vans
for U.S. companies. But Toyota Motor Corp. officials who initially frowned
on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from them.

"They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up
their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome
and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the hot
rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what
they can do about increasing fuel economy."

The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 50-50 mix of gas
and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries
and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel
efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a
day, he says, he gets 80 mpg.

"The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline
usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for
people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day. During
that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic difference."

Backers of plug-in hybrids acknowledge that the electricity to boost their
cars generally comes from fossil fuels that create greenhouse gases, but
they say that process still produces far less pollution than oil. They
also note that electricity could be generated cleanly from solar power.

Gremban rigged his car to promote the nonprofit CalCars Initiative, a San
Francisco Bay area-based volunteer effort that argues automakers could
mass produce plug-in hybrids at a reasonable price.

But Toyota and other car companies say they are worried about the cost,
convenience and safety of plug-in hybrids -- and note that consumers
haven't embraced all-electric cars because of the inconvenience of
recharging them like giant cell phones.

Automakers have spent millions of dollars telling motorists that hybrids
don't need to be plugged in, and don't want to confuse the message.

Nonetheless, plug-in hybrids are starting to get the backing of prominent
hawks like former CIA Director James Woolsey and Frank Gaffney, President
Reagan's undersecretary of defense. They have joined Set America Free, a
group that wants the government to spend $12 billion over four years on
plug-in hybrids, alternative fuels and other measures to reduce foreign
oil dependence.

Gaffney, who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy,
said Americans would embrace plug-ins if they understood arguments from
him and others who say gasoline contributes to oil-rich Middle Eastern
governments that support terrorism.

"The more we are consuming oil that either comes from places that are bent
on our destruction or helping those who are ... the more we are enabling
those who are trying to kill us," Gaffney said.

DaimlerChrysler spokesman Nick Cappa said plug-in hybrids are ideal for
companies with fleets of vehicles that can be recharged at a central
location at night. He declined to name the companies buying the vehicles
and said he did not know the vehicles' mileage or cost, or when they would
be available. On the Net:

CalCars Initiative: calcars.org

--
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We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.



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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 14 Aug 2005, 12:28 pm
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid

Jason wrote:
> Tweaked hybrid gets 80 miles per gallon
>
>
> By Tim Molloy Associated Press
>
>
> CORTE MADERA, Calif. -- Politicians and automakers say a car that can both
> reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil
> is years or even decades away.
>
> Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage.
>
> It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80
> miles-per-gallon secret -- a stack of 18 brick-size batteries that boosts
> the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even
> less fuel.
>
> Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent
> several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car.
>
> Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small
> amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra
> batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet
> at his home in this San Francisco suburb -- all for about a quarter.
>
> He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet
> cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have
> gotten up to 250 mpg.
>
> They have support not only from environmentalists but also from
> conservative foreign-policy hawks who insist Americans fuel terrorism
> through their gas guzzling.
>
> And while the technology has existed for three decades, automakers are
> beginning to take notice, too.
>
> So far, DaimlerChrysler AG is the only company that has committed to
> building its own plug-in hybrids, quietly pledging to make up to 40 vans
> for U.S. companies. But Toyota Motor Corp. officials who initially frowned
> on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from them.
>
> "They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up
> their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome
> and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the hot
> rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what
> they can do about increasing fuel economy."
>
> The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 50-50 mix of gas
> and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries
> and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel
> efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a
> day, he says, he gets 80 mpg.
>
> "The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline
> usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for
> people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day. During
> that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic difference."
>
> Backers of plug-in hybrids acknowledge that the electricity to boost their
> cars generally comes from fossil fuels that create greenhouse gases, but
> they say that process still produces far less pollution than oil. They
> also note that electricity could be generated cleanly from solar power.
>
> Gremban rigged his car to promote the nonprofit CalCars Initiative, a San
> Francisco Bay area-based volunteer effort that argues automakers could
> mass produce plug-in hybrids at a reasonable price.
>
> But Toyota and other car companies say they are worried about the cost,
> convenience and safety of plug-in hybrids -- and note that consumers
> haven't embraced all-electric cars because of the inconvenience of
> recharging them like giant cell phones.
>
> Automakers have spent millions of dollars telling motorists that hybrids
> don't need to be plugged in, and don't want to confuse the message.
>
> Nonetheless, plug-in hybrids are starting to get the backing of prominent
> hawks like former CIA Director James Woolsey and Frank Gaffney, President
> Reagan's undersecretary of defense. They have joined Set America Free, a
> group that wants the government to spend $12 billion over four years on
> plug-in hybrids, alternative fuels and other measures to reduce foreign
> oil dependence.
>
> Gaffney, who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy,
> said Americans would embrace plug-ins if they understood arguments from
> him and others who say gasoline contributes to oil-rich Middle Eastern
> governments that support terrorism.
>
> "The more we are consuming oil that either comes from places that are bent
> on our destruction or helping those who are ... the more we are enabling
> those who are trying to kill us," Gaffney said.
>
> DaimlerChrysler spokesman Nick Cappa said plug-in hybrids are ideal for
> companies with fleets of vehicles that can be recharged at a central
> location at night. He declined to name the companies buying the vehicles
> and said he did not know the vehicles' mileage or cost, or when they would
> be available. On the Net:
>
> CalCars Initiative: calcars.org
>


that's one of the dumbest articles i've ever seen. where do these
idiots thing the "plug in" energy comes from? just pull out the gas
motor & replace entirely with batteries! then it's an infinite mpg
vehicle. thanks for the laugh.

Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 14 Aug 2005, 01:06 pm
Elle
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
> Jason wrote:
> > Tweaked hybrid gets 80 miles per gallon
> >
> >
> > By Tim Molloy Associated Press
> >
> >
> > CORTE MADERA, Calif. -- Politicians and automakers say a car that can

both
> > reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign

oil
> > is years or even decades away.
> >
> > Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage.
> >
> > It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80
> > miles-per-gallon secret -- a stack of 18 brick-size batteries that

boosts
> > the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn

even
> > less fuel.
> >
> > Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent
> > several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car.
> >
> > Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing

small
> > amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra
> > batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall

outlet
> > at his home in this San Francisco suburb -- all for about a quarter.
> >
> > He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet
> > cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have
> > gotten up to 250 mpg.
> >
> > They have support not only from environmentalists but also from
> > conservative foreign-policy hawks who insist Americans fuel terrorism
> > through their gas guzzling.
> >
> > And while the technology has existed for three decades, automakers are
> > beginning to take notice, too.
> >
> > So far, DaimlerChrysler AG is the only company that has committed to
> > building its own plug-in hybrids, quietly pledging to make up to 40 vans
> > for U.S. companies. But Toyota Motor Corp. officials who initially

frowned
> > on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from

them.
> >
> > "They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up
> > their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome
> > and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the

hot
> > rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what
> > they can do about increasing fuel economy."
> >
> > The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 50-50 mix of

gas
> > and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries
> > and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel
> > efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in

a
> > day, he says, he gets 80 mpg.
> >
> > "The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline
> > usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for
> > people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day.

During
> > that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic

difference."
> >
> > Backers of plug-in hybrids acknowledge that the electricity to boost

their
> > cars generally comes from fossil fuels that create greenhouse gases, but
> > they say that process still produces far less pollution than oil. They
> > also note that electricity could be generated cleanly from solar power.
> >
> > Gremban rigged his car to promote the nonprofit CalCars Initiative, a

San
> > Francisco Bay area-based volunteer effort that argues automakers could
> > mass produce plug-in hybrids at a reasonable price.
> >
> > But Toyota and other car companies say they are worried about the cost,
> > convenience and safety of plug-in hybrids -- and note that consumers
> > haven't embraced all-electric cars because of the inconvenience of
> > recharging them like giant cell phones.
> >
> > Automakers have spent millions of dollars telling motorists that hybrids
> > don't need to be plugged in, and don't want to confuse the message.
> >
> > Nonetheless, plug-in hybrids are starting to get the backing of

prominent
> > hawks like former CIA Director James Woolsey and Frank Gaffney,

President
> > Reagan's undersecretary of defense. They have joined Set America Free, a
> > group that wants the government to spend $12 billion over four years on
> > plug-in hybrids, alternative fuels and other measures to reduce foreign
> > oil dependence.
> >
> > Gaffney, who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security

Policy,
> > said Americans would embrace plug-ins if they understood arguments from
> > him and others who say gasoline contributes to oil-rich Middle Eastern
> > governments that support terrorism.
> >
> > "The more we are consuming oil that either comes from places that are

bent
> > on our destruction or helping those who are ... the more we are enabling
> > those who are trying to kill us," Gaffney said.
> >
> > DaimlerChrysler spokesman Nick Cappa said plug-in hybrids are ideal for
> > companies with fleets of vehicles that can be recharged at a central
> > location at night. He declined to name the companies buying the vehicles
> > and said he did not know the vehicles' mileage or cost, or when they

would
> > be available. On the Net:
> >
> > CalCars Initiative: calcars.org
> >

>
> that's one of the dumbest articles i've ever seen. where do these
> idiots thing the "plug in" energy comes from? just pull out the gas
> motor & replace entirely with batteries! then it's an infinite mpg
> vehicle. thanks for the laugh.


What's dumb is your failure to consider the actual costs here.

It appears he spends 25 cents to fully charge his car's batteries. Then he
gets 20 miles of driving using the battery-gasoline combo, achieving
presumably "80 miles per gallon of gasoline." So 20/80 = 1/4 gallon of
gasoline was used to drive 20 miles. At $2.40 per gallon, he paid 60 cents
for that 1/4 gallon. Overall cost to travel 20 miles with this car: 85
cents.

By contrast, with my 40 mpg conventional Honda Civic, I pay $1.20 . He's
paying only 85/120 = ~ 70% of what I pay. Those who drive cars and "trucks"
getting only 27.5 MPG (the CAFE standard for passenger cars?) pay $1.75 for
the 20 mile trip. Mr. Hybrid Engineer (in the article) pays less than half
this.


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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 14 Aug 2005, 01:18 pm
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid

Elle wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
>

<snip>
>>>

>>
>>that's one of the dumbest articles i've ever seen. where do these
>>idiots thing the "plug in" energy comes from? just pull out the gas
>>motor & replace entirely with batteries! then it's an infinite mpg
>>vehicle. thanks for the laugh.

>
>
> What's dumb is your failure to consider the actual costs here.
>
> It appears he spends 25 cents to fully charge his car's batteries. Then he
> gets 20 miles of driving using the battery-gasoline combo, achieving
> presumably "80 miles per gallon of gasoline." So 20/80 = 1/4 gallon of
> gasoline was used to drive 20 miles. At $2.40 per gallon, he paid 60 cents
> for that 1/4 gallon. Overall cost to travel 20 miles with this car: 85
> cents.
>
> By contrast, with my 40 mpg conventional Honda Civic, I pay $1.20 . He's
> paying only 85/120 = ~ 70% of what I pay. Those who drive cars and "trucks"
> getting only 27.5 MPG (the CAFE standard for passenger cars?) pay $1.75 for
> the 20 mile trip. Mr. Hybrid Engineer (in the article) pays less than half
> this.


what's dumb is contending you have an 80mpg vehicle when you don't. may
as well just go for the big kahuna and eliminate the gas entirely.

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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 14 Aug 2005, 05:19 pm
Jason
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid

In article <XNqdncx1F_h0F2LfRVn-og@speakeasy.net>, jim beam
<nospam@example.net> wrote:

> Elle wrote:
> > "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
> >

> <snip>
> >>>
> >>
> >>that's one of the dumbest articles i've ever seen. where do these
> >>idiots thing the "plug in" energy comes from? just pull out the gas
> >>motor & replace entirely with batteries! then it's an infinite mpg
> >>vehicle. thanks for the laugh.

> >
> >
> > What's dumb is your failure to consider the actual costs here.
> >
> > It appears he spends 25 cents to fully charge his car's batteries. Then he
> > gets 20 miles of driving using the battery-gasoline combo, achieving
> > presumably "80 miles per gallon of gasoline." So 20/80 = 1/4 gallon of
> > gasoline was used to drive 20 miles. At $2.40 per gallon, he paid 60 cents
> > for that 1/4 gallon. Overall cost to travel 20 miles with this car: 85
> > cents.
> >
> > By contrast, with my 40 mpg conventional Honda Civic, I pay $1.20 . He's
> > paying only 85/120 = ~ 70% of what I pay. Those who drive cars and "trucks"
> > getting only 27.5 MPG (the CAFE standard for passenger cars?) pay $1.75 for
> > the 20 mile trip. Mr. Hybrid Engineer (in the article) pays less than half
> > this.

>
> what's dumb is contending you have an 80mpg vehicle when you don't. may
> as well just go for the big kahuna and eliminate the gas entirely.


The problem with electric (only) vehicles was that people and companies
worried that the electric vehicles would run out of power and would have
to be towed home or to a place were the drivers could plug them in. With a
"Plug-in" hybrid car--the people and companies that own them would NEVER
have to worry about these issues.

--
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We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.



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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 14 Aug 2005, 09:38 pm
Elle
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
> what's dumb is contending you have an 80mpg vehicle when you don't.


Read the article.



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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 15 Aug 2005, 11:23 pm
John Horner
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid

Have any of these hackers crash tested their vehicles?

I wonder what a rear end collision into a rear end filled with wet cell
lead-acid batteries would do?

Also, where exactly is the electricity for these things supposed to come
from? My home electric bill in the summer here in Northern California
already is getting close to $500/month when the heat waves hit, and that
is with solar energy taking care of all of our domestic hot water.

I really do not want to buy expensive electricity from PG&E for my
automobiles as well!

John
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 16 Aug 2005, 09:09 am
Jim Yanik
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid

John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:qTdMe.6594$1b5.4941@trnddc05:

> Have any of these hackers crash tested their vehicles?
>
> I wonder what a rear end collision into a rear end filled with wet cell
> lead-acid batteries would do?


The guy in the article only used LA cells for initial tests;he then
switched to NiMH. Others are using Li-ion cells.

>
> Also, where exactly is the electricity for these things supposed to come
> from?


Safe,clean nuclear power plants. Time to build more of them.

> My home electric bill in the summer here in Northern California
> already is getting close to $500/month when the heat waves hit, and that
> is with solar energy taking care of all of our domestic hot water.
>
> I really do not want to buy expensive electricity from PG&E for my
> automobiles as well!


It would be a lot cheaper than buying gasoline.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 16 Aug 2005, 11:23 am
Brian Stell
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid

> Safe,clean nuclear power plants. Time to build more of them.

Ever heard of the nuclear waste problem?
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 16 Aug 2005, 11:24 am
Jason
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid

In article <qTdMe.6594$1b5.4941@trnddc05>, John Horner
<jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Have any of these hackers crash tested their vehicles?
>
> I wonder what a rear end collision into a rear end filled with wet cell
> lead-acid batteries would do?
>
> Also, where exactly is the electricity for these things supposed to come
> from? My home electric bill in the summer here in Northern California
> already is getting close to $500/month when the heat waves hit, and that
> is with solar energy taking care of all of our domestic hot water.
>
> I really do not want to buy expensive electricity from PG&E for my
> automobiles as well!
>
> John


John,
You do NOT have to ever buy a hybrid vehicle. You did NOT mention how far
you drive each day or how much you pay for gas each month. If you live
close to where you work, I don't think that anyone would advise you to buy
a hybrid vehicle since they cost much more then a non-hybrid vehicle. I
don't do much driving so I will never buy a hybrid vehicle due to the
cost. However, if I lived 50 miles from where I worked, I would buy a
hybrid vehicle and plug it in
every night since the price of gas is going higher and higher and higher.
Jason

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