Honda Car Forum

"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
news:r8KdnT58c-ac3G3fRVn-2g@sedona.net:

> "flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message
> news:hfeoe1t5st4a9ockko65a4b7vjejv2ut3u@4ax.com...
>> Pfft, missing the point. The point is that they're ONLY getting
>> 40-45mpg. Many non-hybrids on sale in the EU will easily beat that.
>> For isntance, n the UK, a VW lupo returned to one of the most
>> outspoken motoring journalists int he world, an AVERAGE of 65mpg
>> Hybrids are a Pr stunt only.
>
> Fuel economy is only a side effect of hybridization. The major reason
> for the change is to correct the fundamental engineering debacle of
> using a 260 hp engine

Any ICO will not always be making it's full rated power,usually far less.

>to move a personal vehicle through city traffic
> or along a freeway while we could have *better* performance and
> economy from a 100 hp engine running when needed and electric power to
> do the rest. In effect, hybridization separates engine power from
> acceleration performance. Honda has a good example in their 2001
> concept car, the Dualnote (
> http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/aut...OTE/index.html ). 4
> passengers, 400 combined hp, with off-the-line acceleration comparable
> to a 600 hp car (according to Honda engineers interviewed in a Popular
> Mechanics article a couple years ago), and fuel economy estimated
> around 40 mpg. Kinda like a Super Lupo ;-)
>
> Admittedly, hybrids are in their infancy now (but as an owner I can
> tell you the Prius is a really nice infant!) As an engineer I believe
> it is safe to say hybrids will be the rule rather than the exception
> for passenger cars (but not trucks) within 20 years for very sound
> design reasons. You may believe what you wish.
>
> Mike
>
>
>



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

In article <r8KdnT58c-ac3G3fRVn-2g@sedona.net>, "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

> "flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message
> news:hfeoe1t5st4a9ockko65a4b7vjejv2ut3u@4ax.com...
> > Pfft, missing the point. The point is that they're ONLY getting
> > 40-45mpg. Many non-hybrids on sale in the EU will easily beat that.
> > For isntance, n the UK, a VW lupo returned to one of the most
> > outspoken motoring journalists int he world, an AVERAGE of 65mpg
> > Hybrids are a Pr stunt only.
>
> Fuel economy is only a side effect of hybridization. The major reason for
> the change is to correct the fundamental engineering debacle of using a 260
> hp engine to move a personal vehicle through city traffic or along a freeway
> while we could have *better* performance and economy from a 100 hp engine
> running when needed and electric power to do the rest. In effect,
> hybridization separates engine power from acceleration performance. Honda
> has a good example in their 2001 concept car, the Dualnote (
> http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2001/aut...OTE/index.html ). 4 passengers,
> 400 combined hp, with off-the-line acceleration comparable to a 600 hp car
> (according to Honda engineers interviewed in a Popular Mechanics article a
> couple years ago), and fuel economy estimated around 40 mpg. Kinda like a
> Super Lupo ;-)
>
> Admittedly, hybrids are in their infancy now (but as an owner I can tell you
> the Prius is a really nice infant!) As an engineer I believe it is safe to
> say hybrids will be the rule rather than the exception for passenger cars
> (but not trucks) within 20 years for very sound design reasons. You may
> believe what you wish.
>
> Mike

Mike,
You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of
hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily
afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is
having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid
was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of
them.
Jason

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"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-0308051244430001@pm1-broad-111.snlo.dialup.fix.net...

> You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of
> hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily
> afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is
> having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid
> was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of
> them.
> Jason

Base EX-V6 Accord $33,600 CDN
Base Hybrid Accord $36,900 CDN
Source http://honda.ca/Honda/default.htm?L=E

What prices are *you* referring too, "Jason"?

In article <EI-dndRu498L1WzfRVn-gg@rogers.com>, "Steve Bigelow"
<stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote:

> "Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:jason-0308051244430001@pm1-broad-111.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
>
> > You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of
> > hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily
> > afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is
> > having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid
> > was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of
> > them.
> > Jason
>
> Base EX-V6 Accord $33,600 CDN
> Base Hybrid Accord $36,900 CDN
> Source http://honda.ca/Honda/default.htm?L=E
>
> What prices are *you* referring too, "Jason"?

Steve,
The above two prices that you mentioned. If the Hybrid Accord and EX-V6
Accord were both priced at $33,600--Honda would sell lots more of them. I
rarely ever see any Hybrid Accords on any of the parking lots of the local
grocery stores and Walmart stores. I see lots of the V6 (non Hybrid) in
those same parking lots. I realize that this won't happen in the next 5
years since it costs Honda much more to make a Hybrid Accord than a
regular Accord.
Jason

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Jason wrote:

> Mike,
> You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of
> hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily
> afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is
> having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid
> was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of
> them.
> Jason
>

Honda has taken a strange road with the Accord Hybrid and the Acura MDX
hybrid. Rather than using the technology to make a high fuel economy
vehicle they are using it to make a higher performance, expensive vehicle.

Mostly they are selling these vehicles to the feel-good, feel-proud
buyer. A good manual transmission diesel-powered drivetrain would be a
much more efficient use of resources both at the manufacturing stage and
in use.

John

Steve Bigelow wrote:
> "Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:jason-0308051244430001@pm1-broad-111.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
>
>
>>You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of
>>hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily
>>afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is
>>having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid
>>was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of
>>them.
>>Jason
>
>
> Base EX-V6 Accord $33,600 CDN
> Base Hybrid Accord $36,900 CDN
> Source http://honda.ca/Honda/default.htm?L=E
>
> What prices are *you* referring too, "Jason"?

As I was pricing a EX-V6 and a hybrid in the San Francisco area in
Jan/Feb 2005 I found I could get the EX-V6 Navi (with leather) for $26K
but the hybrid was about $32K. As I calculated it: for the price
difference and MPG difference one would need to drive the car for 500K
miles to break even.

I would love to have a hybrid but that $6K put the hybrid out of the
competition.

"" wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-FDB330.08234501082005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> > In article <-KGdnU0oo_hCj3PfRVn-pg@sedona.net>,
> > Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something
> in black and
> > white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and
> not
> > necessarily accept what he says at face value?
>
> Back to the issue....
> Let me put it this way: all Toyota has to do is enter into a
> contract with a
> company to handle the recycling on a per-unit basis and add
> the cost of that
> and the $200 deposit to the battery. Then they can make the
> claim in good
> conscience. It greatly limits their liabilities and costs them
> nothing at
> all. They would be incomprehensibly stupid not to... so what
> on earth would
> make you think such a thing?
>
> Mike

The only problem I have with hybrids is that people dump their "old"
cars to purchase an environmentally friendlier vehicle....

It is my understanding that the processes involved in manufacturing a
new car cause more polution than driving the same car will produce
over its entire lifetime.

So the greenest car is a used one...no matter the gas mileage.

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thedonga wrote:
> "" wrote:
> > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> > news:elmop-FDB330.08234501082005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> > > In article <-KGdnU0oo_hCj3PfRVn-pg@sedona.net>,
> > > Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something
> > in black and
> > > white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and
> > not
> > > necessarily accept what he says at face value?
> >
> > Back to the issue....
> > Let me put it this way: all Toyota has to do is enter into a
> > contract with a
> > company to handle the recycling on a per-unit basis and add
> > the cost of that
> > and the $200 deposit to the battery. Then they can make the
> > claim in good
> > conscience. It greatly limits their liabilities and costs them
> > nothing at
> > all. They would be incomprehensibly stupid not to... so what
> > on earth would
> > make you think such a thing?
> >
> > Mike
>
> The only problem I have with hybrids is that people dump their "old"
> cars to purchase an environmentally friendlier vehicle....
>
> It is my understanding that the processes involved in manufacturing a
> new car cause more polution than driving the same car will produce
> over its entire lifetime.
>
> So the greenest car is a used one...no matter the gas mileage.
>
there's a substantial element of truth to that, and you're thinking big
picture which is good, but for smaller utilitarian cars at least, there
is an overall benefit for the newer more efficient vehicles. whether
that continues to be the case is another matter now that we have
relatively clean burning fuel injected cars, but compared to
carburetion, the overall benefit of modern cars is worth the
manufacturing effort.

In article <hcOdnd3Zo-EEAmzfRVn-tw@speakeasy.net>, jim beam
<nospam@example.net> wrote:

> thedonga wrote:
> > "" wrote:
> > > "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> > > news:elmop-FDB330.08234501082005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> > > > In article <-KGdnU0oo_hCj3PfRVn-pg@sedona.net>,
> > > > Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something
> > > in black and
> > > > white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and
> > > not
> > > > necessarily accept what he says at face value?
> > >
> > > Back to the issue....
> > > Let me put it this way: all Toyota has to do is enter into a
> > > contract with a
> > > company to handle the recycling on a per-unit basis and add
> > > the cost of that
> > > and the $200 deposit to the battery. Then they can make the
> > > claim in good
> > > conscience. It greatly limits their liabilities and costs them
> > > nothing at
> > > all. They would be incomprehensibly stupid not to... so what
> > > on earth would
> > > make you think such a thing?
> > >
> > > Mike
> >
> > The only problem I have with hybrids is that people dump their "old"
> > cars to purchase an environmentally friendlier vehicle....
> >
> > It is my understanding that the processes involved in manufacturing a
> > new car cause more polution than driving the same car will produce
> > over its entire lifetime.
> >
> > So the greenest car is a used one...no matter the gas mileage.
> >
> there's a substantial element of truth to that, and you're thinking big
> picture which is good, but for smaller utilitarian cars at least, there
> is an overall benefit for the newer more efficient vehicles. whether
> that continues to be the case is another matter now that we have
> relatively clean burning fuel injected cars, but compared to
> carburetion, the overall benefit of modern cars is worth the
> manufacturing effort.

Hello,
I agree with you related to your last point. I am now 54 years old and
remember all of the problems I had with cars made in the 1960's, 70's and
early 80's. The carburetor and electrical system was the main source of
those problems. I have never had any problems with the EFI system or
electrical system in both of Honda Accords that I have owned.
Jason

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On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 01:22:37 GMT, John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Jason wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>> You are probably right. I know that you will be right once the price of
>> hybrid vehicles comes down to the point where almost anyone can easily
>> afford to buy them. The Honda Accord Hybrid is so expensive that Honda is
>> having a difficult time selling very many of them. If the Accord Hybrid
>> was priced the same as the 6 cyld. Accord, they would sell lots more of
>> them.
>> Jason
>>
>
>Honda has taken a strange road with the Accord Hybrid and the Acura MDX
>hybrid. Rather than using the technology to make a high fuel economy
>vehicle they are using it to make a higher performance, expensive vehicle.
>
>Mostly they are selling these vehicles to the feel-good, feel-proud
>buyer. A good manual transmission diesel-powered drivetrain would be a
>much more efficient use of resources both at the manufacturing stage and
>in use.

Problem is, you can't get a decent, efficient, and above all else
MODERN diesel engine in the Us - i believe its because the fuel that
is sold here, doesn't work well with the new engine designs that have
come up in the last 20-odd years, and the new fuels don't work well
with the engines that have been sold in the US in those intervening 20
years.

>
>John
>