Honda Car Forum


 

Go Back   Honda Car Forum - Accord Parts Civic Tuning Acura Racing > Honda Acura > Honda 2

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12 Jun 2005, 07:41 pm
TeGGeR®
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html

Hopefully this is correct now.

Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 12 Jun 2005, 08:31 pm
r2000swler@hotmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections

TeGGeR® wrote:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html

Hopefully this is correct now.

Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
--------------------------------------
I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
"RPM".

Terry

Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 12 Jun 2005, 08:34 pm
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections

r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
> TeGGeR® wrote:
>
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>
> Hopefully this is correct now.
>
> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
> --------------------------------------
> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
> for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
> hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
> "RPM".
>
> Terry
>

interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!

Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 12 Jun 2005, 09:31 pm
TeGGeR®
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
rw@speakeasy.net:

> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>
>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>
>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>
>> --
>> TeGGeR®
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>> --------------------------------------
>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>> for for some PWM control.



"PWM" control?


> It senses the back EMF and
>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>> hot spark.



Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?



>> I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>> "RPM".
>>
>> Terry
>>

> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
> to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>
>



So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?

And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic ignition
versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a fat spark are
the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since the system has no
way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 12 Jun 2005, 10:43 pm
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections

TeGGeR® wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
> rw@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>
>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>
>>>--
>>>TeGGeR®
>>>
>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>for for some PWM control.

>
>
>
> "PWM" control?
>
>
>
>>It senses the back EMF and
>>
>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>hot spark.

>
>
>
> Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?


as the magnetic field decays inducing a current into the secondary [high
voltage] coil, the same is going on with the primary coil, but smaller.
just need to measure it. presumably the chips we see in graham's
photos either have a map or even calculate "dwell" based on what they
measure. but i'm guessing, i don't know for sure.

>
>
>
>
>>>I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>"RPM".
>>>
>>>Terry
>>>

>>
>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
>>to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>
>>

>
>
>
> So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?


ah! news servers! fickle things.

>
> And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic ignition
> versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a fat spark are
> the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since the system has no
> way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.
>

which is why people used to experiment with dual plugs and dual ignition
systems occasionally. total pains in the rear and highly unreliable,
but it was a stab in the right direction. but you're right, once
electronic ignition came in, and it wasn't unreliable or expensive,
suddenly, it was ok to go electronic with everything. and that's been a
good thing up until recently. i don't see current chip technology
physically having the longevity we've been so far used to. and of
course, with increasing reliance on mysterious black box electronic
componentry, how do you know whether a manufacturer caves in to the
temptation to program in an end of life? that already happens with ink
jet cartridges, regardless of their fill state.

Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 13 Jun 2005, 11:05 am
Jim Yanik
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9673D2868F816tegger@207.14.113.17:

> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>
> Hopefully this is correct now.


Looks good!
>
> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>


"flyback" voltage;when the coil is charged,the magnetic field builds
up,then when the charging current is removed,the collapsing magnetic field
generates a voltage in the opposite direction of the charging current.

The flyback voltage IS the HV pulse that the spark plugs get.

The mag field is generated by the primary,12V side of the coil,but the
collapsing magnetic field induces the flyback pulse in both the primary and
secondary of the coil,that's how the HIGH voltage is generated;the
secondary has many more turns of a finer wire(finer to fit more turns in
the same space);more turns,the higher the voltage induced.In the automotive
ignition coil,the primary is connected to the secondary,and the HV current
also travels through the primary.

That is why there's a bypass diode,it shunts the flyback current around the
Darlington,to keep it from breaking it down from over-voltage.It's part of
the path for the flyback voltage.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 13 Jun 2005, 11:07 am
Jim Yanik
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
rw@speakeasy.net:

> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>
>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>
>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>
>> --
>> TeGGeR®
>>
>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>> --------------------------------------
>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>> for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>> hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>> "RPM".
>>
>> Terry
>>

> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
> to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>
>


That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 13 Jun 2005, 11:11 am
Jim Yanik
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in
news:Xns9673E5376EE89tegger@207.14.113.17:

> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
> rw@speakeasy.net:
>
>> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>> Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>
>>> Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>
>>> --
>>> TeGGeR®
>>>
>>> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>> --------------------------------------
>>> I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>> for for some PWM control.

>
>
> "PWM" control?


Pulse Width Modulation.

>
>
>> It senses the back EMF and
>>> kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>> hot spark.

>
>
> Do you know the mechanism by which it sees the back EMF?
>
>
>
>>> I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>> to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>> igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>> "RPM".



I suspect the IC inside the igniter controls coil current,by means of
varying the pulse width(that PWM).
I haven't looked for any IC app notes to see exactly what they're
doing,though.If anyone has a URL for an app note for these Ics,I'll go
look.


>>>
>>> Terry
>>>

>> interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the
>> time to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>
>>

>
>
> So how come my news server has this message, but not Terry's?
>
> And yes, that's one of the very nice features about electronic
> ignition versus Kettering. With Kettering, the very moments you need a
> fat spark are the very moments you get a weaker and weaker spark since
> the system has no way of increasing dwell time to compensate for RPM.
>




--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 13 Jun 2005, 09:32 pm
jim beam
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections

Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
> rw@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>
>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>
>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>
>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>
>>>--
>>>TeGGeR®
>>>
>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>"RPM".
>>>
>>>Terry
>>>

>>
>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the time
>>to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>
>>

>
>
> That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
> The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.
>

so where does it adjust pulse width - has to be on the front end, right?
if it was on the rear, the timing would be off. or maybe the ecu
already knows what the igniter's timing characteristics are and adjusts
accordingly?...

Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 13 Jun 2005, 09:50 pm
TeGGeR®
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:U4KdnVF_erM53DPfRVn-jw@speakeasy.net:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news_-dnS91tZMHfzHfRVn-
>> rw@speakeasy.net:
>>
>>
>>>r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>TeGGeR® wrote:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/ignit...ion/index.html
>>>>
>>>>Hopefully this is correct now.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks to all for their help, especially Jim Yanik.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>TeGGeR®
>>>>
>>>>The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
>>>>www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
>>>>--------------------------------------
>>>>I think in the 1990 Honda Civic, the igniter also provides
>>>>for for some PWM control. It senses the back EMF and
>>>>kills the coil drive at the correct momment to insure a
>>>>hot spark. I played with an ignitor and couldn't get it
>>>>to because correctly until I connected to to a Honda
>>>>igntion coil. As I varied the frequency of the drive pulses,
>>>> all the same width, the output created wider pulse at higher
>>>>"RPM".
>>>>
>>>>Terry
>>>>
>>>
>>>interesting! i'd read that they did that, but just haven't had the
>>>time to sit down & test for it. thanks for the confirmation!
>>>
>>>

>>
>>
>> That is probably what the IC in the igniter does.(control PW.)
>> The ECU merely provides the trigger at the proper time.
>>

> so where does it adjust pulse width - has to be on the front end,
> right?
> if it was on the rear, the timing would be off. or maybe the ecu
> already knows what the igniter's timing characteristics are and
> adjusts accordingly?...
>
>



I think the ECU holds ground on Terminal 4 for the appropriate length of
time, which keeps the igniter driving the coil until ground is removed.
Once ground is removed from Pin 4, the IC switches off coil drive and the
field collapses.

The ECU decides when to apply ground and break it based on the inputs of
various sensors, such as the Crank Angle Sensor. It needs to know current
RPM, cylinder position and crank angle.

Terry is also indicating that the coil is allowed to charge for a longer
time at high RPMs to ensure a fatter spark under harsher conditions.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections TeGGeR® Acura 23 18 Jun 2005 12:08 pm
Unofficial FAQ: Ignition corrections TeGGeR® Honda 3 23 18 Jun 2005 12:08 pm
Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ TeGGeR® Acura 47 06 Jun 2005 07:34 am
Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ TeGGeR® Honda 2 44 06 Jun 2005 07:34 am
Ignition updates to the Unofficial FAQ TeGGeR® Honda 3 44 06 Jun 2005 07:34 am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:10 pm.


Attribution:
Honda News | Autoblog
Powered by Yahoo Answers




Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2 © 2011, Crawlability, Inc.
HondaCarForum.com is not affiliated with Honda Motor Company in any way. Honda Motor Company does not sponsor, support, or endorse HondaCarForum.com in any way. Copyright/trademark/sales mark infringements are not intended or implied.