Honda Car Forum

> How many kids educated in /liberal/ countries surpass our kids in math and
> sciences?
>
> So having a left or right agenda has nothing to do with education.

Liberals in other countries aren't quite like the liberals in the US.
While they both believe in big government, the liberals in the US have
much more touchy/feely kind of slant. Not really sure where that came
from, however, as it's a more recent phenomenon.

Witness the recent craziness in using purple markers to score tests
instead of red ink, because red is too "frightening", and the belief by
many that it's not important what you get on a test, but that the
attempt was good enough.

http://www.boston.com/news/education...seeing_purple/

Matt Ion wrote:

> Some good ones I've heard over the years:
>
> One friend insisted there's butter in peanut butter...
>
> A girl my wife works with thought Bellingham was a state (it's a town in
> north-west Washington state). She also couldn't figure out why all
> those cars from Washington (DC) were driving around when she visited the
> State of Bellingham...

On one driving vacation I woke up in Gallup, looked out the window and
wondered where all the Chinese cowboys came from...

Then again, in California one wonders why all those junky-looking cars are
marked FRONT? Can't they tell from the hood ornament?

--
Cheers,
Bev
*************************************************
Never argue with a woman holding a torque wrench.

"Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1127321686.769551.146500@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> > How many kids educated in /liberal/ countries surpass our kids in math
and
> > sciences?
> >
> > So having a left or right agenda has nothing to do with education.
>
> Liberals in other countries aren't quite like the liberals in the US.
> While they both believe in big government, the liberals in the US have
> much more touchy/feely kind of slant. Not really sure where that came
> from, however, as it's a more recent phenomenon.
>

I grew up in a country with not just big but /huge/ governement
(Netherlands), very liberal and extremely touchy/feely by US standards.
All that has not affected education negatively. In fact, I'd venture a guess
that their educational system at high school level is much better than ours
and their students leave with skills that are actually marketable.
If you question the validity of that statement, I could defend this position
in four languages, all learned in their grade and high school system. Can
you do this without using babelfish?

It is like saying that the educational system went to pot after we started
importing Hondas, started growing tofu or is an effect of global warming -
While it may have happened at the same time, it has little to do with the
issue.

> Witness the recent craziness in using purple markers to score tests
> instead of red ink, because red is too "frightening", and the belief by
> many that it's not important what you get on a test, but that the
> attempt was good enough.
>
>
http://www.boston.com/news/education...seeing_purple/
>

That is not done everywhere. Also doubt if purple score markers seriously
affects performance of students. (see above statement of global warming).

"ameijers" <aemeijers@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:ks4Ye.63670$qY1.39160@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Steve" <lto@tin.inv> wrote in message
> news:cvc1j1d384ejbthem0johog66t1i9ocs09@4ax.com...
>> Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote:
>> >Some good ones I've heard over the years:
>> >A girl my wife works with thought Bellingham was a state (it's a town in
>> >north-west Washington state). She also couldn't figure out why all
>> >those cars from Washington (DC) were driving around when she visited the
>> >State of Bellingham...
>>
>> Not to mention the number of US citizens who think you need a passport
>> to visit New Mexico...
>
> Chuckle- look at NM's license plates. Pretty sure they are the only state
> that feels the need to put 'USA' on the plate. Probably urban myths, but
> I've heard tales of rental companies refusing one-way rentals to NM,
> because
> they don't do international rentals, and old-time long distance operators
> trying to charge international rates to Taos, etc.
>
> aem sends...
>

Not an urban myth. First hand experience: I was trying to order some parts
for a piece of electronic equipment from EG&G in Salem, MA. When I told
them I was in New Mexico, the phone guy wanted to transfer me to their
international section. It took some explaining to convince him that we are
in the USA. In Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA.
--
Bearman
America: Land of the free because of the brave.

remco wrote:
> "Larry Bud" <larrybud2002@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1127321686.769551.146500@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> > > How many kids educated in /liberal/ countries surpass our kids in math
> and
> > > sciences?
> > >
> > > So having a left or right agenda has nothing to do with education.
> >
> > Liberals in other countries aren't quite like the liberals in the US.
> > While they both believe in big government, the liberals in the US have
> > much more touchy/feely kind of slant. Not really sure where that came
> > from, however, as it's a more recent phenomenon.
> >
>
> I grew up in a country with not just big but /huge/ governement
> (Netherlands), very liberal and extremely touchy/feely by US standards.
> All that has not affected education negatively. In fact, I'd venture a guess
> that their educational system at high school level is much better than ours
> and their students leave with skills that are actually marketable.
> If you question the validity of that statement, I could defend this position
> in four languages, all learned in their grade and high school system. Can
> you do this without using babelfish?

Nope, I don't doubt you. However, would your schools not care what
your achievement was as far as grades becaue it might hurt your
feelings and affect your self esteem?

> > Witness the recent craziness in using purple markers to score tests
> > instead of red ink, because red is too "frightening", and the belief by
> > many that it's not important what you get on a test, but that the
> > attempt was good enough.
> >
> http://www.boston.com/news/education...seeing_purple/
>
> That is not done everywhere. Also doubt if purple score markers seriously
> affects performance of students. (see above statement of global warming).

It's done in enough places for retail outlets to start stocking more
purple markers!!

Did you have private schools in the Netherlands?

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 20:45:50 -0400, "remco"
<whybcuzREMOVE@THISyahoo.com> wrote:

>
>"Larry J." <usenet2@DE.LETE.THISljvideo.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns96D7A90B84D2Dlarrythefrog@68.6.19.6...
>> Waiving the right to remain silent, "remco"
>> <whybcuzREMOVE@THISyahoo.com> said:
>>
>> > C'mon now... How do you spin politics in a calc class?
>> > /Now/ who has no common sense?
>>
>> My point being that they aren't taught the skills they need to have,
>> just a "liberal" agenda.

Classic hallmark of political indoctrination. All Liberal actually
means is free-thinking, not constrained by previous ideas (but also
not prohibited from those same ideas) If it wasn't for 'liberals' the
few lucky enough to go to school would be memorising times tables by
rote in full uniform, and getting a caning for having dirty nails.

>>
>
>
>That's just silly: for any group to have an agenda, they'd have to agree
>first. They can't agree themselves out of a wet paper bag.
>
>
>
>I am not a political animal, but "no child left behind" - /COME ON NOW/ -
>what a joke! While I am not blaming the current regime for the education
>mess, can it truly be said that what was recently done is helpful?
>

I for one, am currently dealing with one of the consequences of this
act. A friends new step-daughter (they've been married now about 3
months) is repeating the 5th grade. She failed the rgade last year,
but because of 'no child left behind' the school was trying to push
her p to the middle school anyway, that is what the act calls for
after all - no child to be left behind. It took her father, and her
new step-mother (our friend) 2 weeks of fighting with the school
district to have her repeat the year. As it is, i'm working out some
extra stuff and am now gong to tutor her every other weekend.

>
>
>How many in this country - educated during a non-liberal period - are
>functionally illiterate? They can read but cannot understand while they are
>doing so. They can write, but not without making many errors. They cannot do
>simple math. We're not even talking higher education, but just high school
>level.

When i first moved to the US 2 1/2 years ago, my wife's cousin was
just finishing high school, and needed some serious help with her
maths classes. Since we were staying at their house (whilst i painted
and prepped our new house) i was tutoring her in the evenings (since i
have UK A-levels in maths and further maths, closest equivilent to the
US is an associates in maths) Going over the sylabus, it was nothing
more than basic calculus and trig. VERY basic stuff, the same stuff
i'd done years earlier in the (getting dumbed down year-by-year)
british system aged 15-16. To say she was flat out amazed when all
her homeworks and problems were answered just by looking at them (the
trig were almost all varients of 3-4-5, 1-2-root3 or 1-1-root2
triangles and since i've just given you all 3 sides, its more a ratios
question than trig)

A guy in one of my IRC channels (on astronomy) is just starting
university, and was bitching about the books he had to buy for his
first year. The one for his physics classes was the same one i used
for my GCSEs (those are school-leaving qualifications, taken one
per-subject, at age 16) Hes not online right now, so i'm not sure
where hes going, but its New England area i think.


>How many kids educated in /liberal/ countries surpass our kids in math and
>sciences?
>

The US education system lacks far behind european nations. American
educated students, have to take a 'year0' or foundation year at
british universities, to get them upto standards. The problem is easy
- theres too much time for socialising, and irrelevence. Too much time
spent giving so much choice to students, being able to pick and choose
classes, the extra-curricular activities, that the point of school -
BEING THERE TO LEARN has been forgotten.

We had homecomming last friday. It started off quite literally about
20ft from my desk here. It was filled by 'senior favourites' and
'class of 06 that' and even the one private school in the this county
(and indeed the only one in the surrounding 8 as well) was there with
a big floats. All together, maybe 90% of the kids in the high school
were invovled somehow, from band, to flag corp (?!?!?!?) to JROTC (and
don't get me started on them, I saw less of an unruly mob during the
Miner's Strikes against Thatcher in the 80's.

Where has all the education gone? look right there. Don't get me
wrong, i'm not against the organisations themselves, its just the way
they've 'taken over' school life. When I was at school, the school has
a lot more sports teams (roughly 7 cricket teams, a similar number for
football (or soccer, as the world minority in north america calls it)
and the same again for Rugby (or American football for men) 2
swimming squads, an athletics team, 4 basketball teams, 2 badminton
teams, a squash 'squad', a cycling team, a hockey team (grass, not
ice) and even a small half-marathon team (try and fit THAT practice
into a lunch hour!) as well as more cerebral teams like chess,
analytical chemistry, debating, mock trials, all of these competing at
the national level, and STILL kept in the top 5 schools in the region
academically, because ALL those squads and teams were own time stuff.
They used school equipment, but all on their own time. I rmmeber once,
when i was about 14-15, the headmaster announcing that the football
first XI had won the national football competition, but there were no
parades, that was it. It didn't dominate the school, because the
school was about LEARNING.


>
>So having a left or right agenda has nothing to do with education.

its more about the aims of that agenda and how they're reached.

>
>The real problem is that our kids are not educated correctly from early on.
>There are many truly dedicated teachers out there, but some are just there
>for a paycheck - and we are not allowed to weed them out. Good teachers are
>not identified and thus are not being paid what they truly deserve - some
>never even become teachers for that reason.

The system encourages this indeterminacy of the student ability, by
providing only one grade, the GPA. When the school does grade subjects
individually, its just a single flat mark, be it percentage or a
grade. Ability/effort grading internalls, and per-subject competance
grading externally is what is needed. A 3.0 GPA means what? they're a
bit above average in all subjects? They're really good in all but 1 or
2?

>
>We cut school programs like music, shop, arts, special science programs --
>all the stuff that teaches you more than just stupid facts.

not sure i agree with you 100% here. It depends what you mean, really.
General shop (or really design-technology) is good, anything specific
in that isn't. What do you mean by special science programs? ones
conecntrating on a specific area of a subject, or a good in depth look
all over. The ability to drop subjects is one there should be, but it
should only be doable once or twice, and then its not dropping, as
switching. I for one dropped Music when i could, switching for
Business Studies, and dropped Spanish for 3D art+design

>
>On top of that, our student/teacher ratio is ridiculous. Material is often
>old and lacking. We expect our schools to teach our kids manners or
>discipline. We complain when our kids get two hours of homework because they
>need too much help and we don't have that kind of time.

I'm all for homework, the more the better. However, when my 8yo gets
stuck, I don't help. i only guide a step or 2. If she still can't do
it, i'll guide another step or two and then, if its still stumping
her, i'll write a note to the teacher, and bring her attention to
that. Helping them through their homework hurts, because you're doing
the problems, not them. You won't be there in the exam time. Her 3rd
grade teacher this year has been very hapy with the grades my
daughter's got. Her teacher last year was also happy with it (she had
just qualified as a teacher, and was her first year of work) So far,
my daughter's had all a's for that whole time. In her first grade, her
teacher wouldn't work with us, She taught in school, worked in school,
and when she wasn't at school, she didn't want to think about
schoolwork.Not a good teacher.

>
>This is because we spend an average of 10 minutes 'quality time' with our
>kids each day - a term invented to ease a parent's concience, btw. We spend
>too much time at work, spend way too little time with our family and pay
>other people to take care of our kids.

Guess thats where i'm lucky. I spend most of my time working from
home.

>
>
>Not a formula for parental success.
>
>It largely is due to the type of society we are. (remember why Rome was
>bowled over? Or does one only learn about that in a liberal school system
>
>
>
>Let me get off my soapbox now and get back to working on my vw bug..

nowt wrong with soapboxing. US education system does need a severe
kick up the arse though

>
>
>Remco

> > > Witness the recent craziness in using purple markers to score tests
> > > instead of red ink, because red is too "frightening", and the belief
by
> > > many that it's not important what you get on a test, but that the
> > > attempt was good enough.
> > >
> >
http://www.boston.com/news/education...seeing_purple/
> >
> > That is not done everywhere. Also doubt if purple score markers
seriously
> > affects performance of students. (see above statement of global
warming).
>
> It's done in enough places for retail outlets to start stocking more
> purple markers!!
>
> Did you have private schools in the Netherlands?

They do have them, but where I grew up most kids went to public schools
unless the parents had specific religious convictions (Catholic, mostly).

I think by and large we agree that something needs to change. To shove it
into the shoes of left or right doesn't fix it, though. The problem has been
here with both extremes in power.

>>>My point being that they aren't taught the skills they need to have,
>>>just a "liberal" agenda.
>Classic hallmark of political indoctrination. All Liberal actually
>means is free-thinking, not constrained by previous ideas (but also
>not prohibited from those same ideas) If it wasn't for 'liberals' the
>few lucky enough to go to school would be memorizing times tables by
>rote in full uniform, and getting a caning for having dirty nails.
And what's wrong with that? (just kidding)

As much as we hate that stultifying picture, the question of what
skills and knowledge should be taught in school, and the question of
what atmosphere (oppressive or free wheeling) in which those skills
and knowledge should be taught are very separate. Unfortunately, many
among us lump them together for ideological expediency.

Interesting perspective - well put.

> >
> >We cut school programs like music, shop, arts, special science
programs --
> >all the stuff that teaches you more than just stupid facts.
>
> not sure i agree with you 100% here. It depends what you mean, really.
> General shop (or really design-technology) is good, anything specific
> in that isn't. What do you mean by special science programs? ones
> conecntrating on a specific area of a subject, or a good in depth look
> all over. The ability to drop subjects is one there should be, but it
> should only be doable once or twice, and then its not dropping, as
> switching. I for one dropped Music when i could, switching for
> Business Studies, and dropped Spanish for 3D art+design
>

I think anything that helps the connecting of different synapses is a plus:
We've all been in classes as kids where all we'd do is regurgitate facts.
You and I can tell anyone what the capitol of Juguslavia was without even
thinking -- and that's not an all bad thing as long as there are other
classes that allow one to open the mind a little. If one never learned to be
interested in history/politial sciences/cultures, knowing the capitol of
Yuguslavia is hardly relevant (anymore).

Shop could be wood working, welding, car repair or metal working - where one
learns how something works or learns to build something from design to
product. Science/Technology could be some sort of programming class or some
sort of biology experiment.

"Abe" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:u1k3j1pt36ebsf7hojo4e4265qtn80kkr9@4ax.com...
> >>>My point being that they aren't taught the skills they need to have,
> >>>just a "liberal" agenda.
> >Classic hallmark of political indoctrination. All Liberal actually
> >means is free-thinking, not constrained by previous ideas (but also
> >not prohibited from those same ideas) If it wasn't for 'liberals' the
> >few lucky enough to go to school would be memorizing times tables by
> >rote in full uniform, and getting a caning for having dirty nails.
> And what's wrong with that? (just kidding)
>
> As much as we hate that stultifying picture, the question of what
> skills and knowledge should be taught in school, and the question of
> what atmosphere (oppressive or free wheeling) in which those skills
> and knowledge should be taught are very separate. Unfortunately, many
> among us lump them together for ideological expediency.

Thank you - You said it all.