Honda Car Forum

Greetings, all.

I have the subject auto with 60K miles.

A couple of times this year, the engine will not start after having been
driven for some time and in warm conditions. Most recently, it failed
to start after sitting in the sun for a couple of hours. It did
eventually start after opening the doors (where I sat wondering if I
should call for a tow) and thus my questions. As I mentioned, it did
start and ran just fine. It exhibited conditions of being flooded, but
is that possible with fuel injection? Is there the normal carburetor
accelerator pump present in FI systems? The problem has not recurred.

The engine starter was and did spin the engine the entire above event
but it would not convert to the normal engine running.

Engine is well maintained and not modified in any way. Use Chevron 93
octane fuel exclusively.

A couple of opinions offered were:

1. Loosening the gas cap to allow gasoline vapors to equalize from
having vaporized in the tank. Here it was suggested I replace the PCV
valve.

2. A service person suggested a "main" relay was a known cause of hot
starting (hot as in the passenger compartment) failures. Further this
technician indicated this relay was underneath the drivers side steering
wheel/instrument panel.

Any comments or advice on where to look?

I even attempted to simulate the same conditions by moving car from the
cool garage to a direct sunlit day for several hours and tried (with
instant success) to start engine.

I do so dislike intermittent problems.

Thanks in advance,

PB

PB wrote:
> Greetings, all.
>
> I have the subject auto with 60K miles.
>
> A couple of times this year, the engine will not start after having been
> driven for some time and in warm conditions. Most recently, it failed
> to start after sitting in the sun for a couple of hours. It did
> eventually start after opening the doors (where I sat wondering if I
> should call for a tow) and thus my questions. As I mentioned, it did
> start and ran just fine. It exhibited conditions of being flooded, but
> is that possible with fuel injection? Is there the normal carburetor
> accelerator pump present in FI systems? The problem has not recurred.
>
> The engine starter was and did spin the engine the entire above event
> but it would not convert to the normal engine running.
>
> Engine is well maintained and not modified in any way. Use Chevron 93
> octane fuel exclusively.
>
> A couple of opinions offered were:
>
> 1. Loosening the gas cap to allow gasoline vapors to equalize from
> having vaporized in the tank. Here it was suggested I replace the PCV
> valve.
>
> 2. A service person suggested a "main" relay was a known cause of hot
> starting (hot as in the passenger compartment) failures. Further this
> technician indicated this relay was underneath the drivers side steering
> wheel/instrument panel.
>
> Any comments or advice on where to look?
>
> I even attempted to simulate the same conditions by moving car from the
> cool garage to a direct sunlit day for several hours and tried (with
> instant success) to start engine.
>
> I do so dislike intermittent problems.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> PB
I found this page:

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...html#mainrelay

It is a little fuzzy on whether a 1994 Acura was a possible candidate
for this problem. Any comments?

PB

"PB" <p00lb0y@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:la-dnXBXdOazhADZnZ2dnUVZ_q-dnZ2d@insightbb.com...
> PB wrote:
>> Greetings, all.
>>
>> I have the subject auto with 60K miles.
>>
>> A couple of times this year, the engine will not start after having been
>> driven for some time and in warm conditions. Most recently, it failed to
>> start after sitting in the sun for a couple of hours. It did eventually
>> start after opening the doors (where I sat wondering if I should call for
>> a tow) and thus my questions. As I mentioned, it did start and ran just
>> fine. It exhibited conditions of being flooded, but is that possible
>> with fuel injection? Is there the normal carburetor accelerator pump
>> present in FI systems? The problem has not recurred.
>>
>> The engine starter was and did spin the engine the entire above event but
>> it would not convert to the normal engine running.
>>
>> Engine is well maintained and not modified in any way. Use Chevron 93
>> octane fuel exclusively.
>>
>> A couple of opinions offered were:
>>
>> 1. Loosening the gas cap to allow gasoline vapors to equalize from
>> having vaporized in the tank. Here it was suggested I replace the PCV
>> valve.
>>
>> 2. A service person suggested a "main" relay was a known cause of hot
>> starting (hot as in the passenger compartment) failures. Further this
>> technician indicated this relay was underneath the drivers side steering
>> wheel/instrument panel.
>>
>> Any comments or advice on where to look?
>>
>> I even attempted to simulate the same conditions by moving car from the
>> cool garage to a direct sunlit day for several hours and tried (with
>> instant success) to start engine.
>>
>> I do so dislike intermittent problems.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> PB
> I found this page:
>
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...html#mainrelay
>
> It is a little fuzzy on whether a 1994 Acura was a possible candidate for
> this problem. Any comments?
>
> PB

You found the link you were looking for. Yes, you have one of the infamous
"main relays." And yes, the symptoms are classic for a bad main relay. In
fact, I strongly recommend you either fix or replace the relay (see the link
on that page for the fixing details) on suspicion. If you aren't having
trouble with it yet you will soon.

My son has a '94 Teg and has replaced his relay in the last year. He should
be waking up in about 2 hours and I will pump him about location and any
special access considerations. IIRC a new relay is about $70 US - enough to
make repair attractive - and OEM is preferable to aftermarket. But
aftermarket sure beats a just plain bad one!

For the accelerator pump question... although electronic FI systems don't
have an accelerator pump, they are (all?) programmed to behave as though
they did! I imagine that is because it was easy enough to do and it made FI
behave more like people were used to. Anyway, pumping the accelerator pedal
with the ignition on and the engine not started gives a rich start and
holding the pedal down while starting gives a lean start.

Mike

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "PB" <p00lb0y@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:la-dnXBXdOazhADZnZ2dnUVZ_q-dnZ2d@insightbb.com...
>> PB wrote:
>>> Greetings, all.
>>>
>>> I have the subject auto with 60K miles.
>>>
>>> A couple of times this year, the engine will not start after having been
>>> driven for some time and in warm conditions. Most recently, it failed to
>>> start after sitting in the sun for a couple of hours. It did eventually
>>> start after opening the doors (where I sat wondering if I should call for
>>> a tow) and thus my questions. As I mentioned, it did start and ran just
>>> fine. It exhibited conditions of being flooded, but is that possible
>>> with fuel injection? Is there the normal carburetor accelerator pump
>>> present in FI systems? The problem has not recurred.
>>>
>>> The engine starter was and did spin the engine the entire above event but
>>> it would not convert to the normal engine running.
>>>
>>> Engine is well maintained and not modified in any way. Use Chevron 93
>>> octane fuel exclusively.
>>>
>>> A couple of opinions offered were:
>>>
>>> 1. Loosening the gas cap to allow gasoline vapors to equalize from
>>> having vaporized in the tank. Here it was suggested I replace the PCV
>>> valve.
>>>
>>> 2. A service person suggested a "main" relay was a known cause of hot
>>> starting (hot as in the passenger compartment) failures. Further this
>>> technician indicated this relay was underneath the drivers side steering
>>> wheel/instrument panel.
>>>
>>> Any comments or advice on where to look?
>>>
>>> I even attempted to simulate the same conditions by moving car from the
>>> cool garage to a direct sunlit day for several hours and tried (with
>>> instant success) to start engine.
>>>
>>> I do so dislike intermittent problems.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>
>>> PB
>> I found this page:
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...html#mainrelay
>>
>> It is a little fuzzy on whether a 1994 Acura was a possible candidate for
>> this problem. Any comments?
>>
>> PB
>
> You found the link you were looking for. Yes, you have one of the infamous
> "main relays." And yes, the symptoms are classic for a bad main relay. In
> fact, I strongly recommend you either fix or replace the relay (see the link
> on that page for the fixing details) on suspicion. If you aren't having
> trouble with it yet you will soon.
>
> My son has a '94 Teg and has replaced his relay in the last year. He should
> be waking up in about 2 hours and I will pump him about location and any
> special access considerations. IIRC a new relay is about $70 US - enough to
> make repair attractive - and OEM is preferable to aftermarket. But
> aftermarket sure beats a just plain bad one!
>
> For the accelerator pump question... although electronic FI systems don't
> have an accelerator pump, they are (all?) programmed to behave as though
> they did! I imagine that is because it was easy enough to do and it made FI
> behave more like people were used to. Anyway, pumping the accelerator pedal
> with the ignition on and the engine not started gives a rich start and
> holding the pedal down while starting gives a lean start.
>
> Mike
>
>
Thanks for the prompt reply.

I am able to use a soldering iron. The traces and pads look far enough
apart that the risk of bridging a solder joint seems minimal. So
another question might be is the fix worth the effort, or, while I have
the area exposed, is a new Acura part the better route for reliability?
In which case I would still re-flow the solder joints on the old one
retaining it as a ready spare.

Did the part manufacturing process address the defect and are new parts
likely to be free of the problem?

Thanks once again,

PB (but really Mike, too)

My son says the relay is bolted to the side (he described it as actually
being bolted to the kick panel, but that doesn't seem right) above the
clutch pedal.

Mike

"PB" <p00lb0y@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:3cCdnRt7c_Vn_gDZnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@insightbb.co m...
> I am able to use a soldering iron. The traces and pads look far enough
> apart that the risk of bridging a solder joint seems minimal. So another
> question might be is the fix worth the effort, or, while I have the area
> exposed, is a new Acura part the better route for reliability? In which
> case I would still re-flow the solder joints on the old one retaining it
> as a ready spare.
>
> Did the part manufacturing process address the defect and are new parts
> likely to be free of the problem?
>
> Thanks once again,
>
> PB (but really Mike, too)

The repair is a piece of cake for anybody who has soldered PC boards or
other semi-delicate parts. This problem is not unique to Honda products. It
comes from the bad practice of using solder as the strength part to mount
components - especially heavy components like relays - to circuit boards in
high-vibration environments. I doubt the current ones cement the parts down
before soldering them, which is what is needed to relieve the stress on the
weak and fairly brittle solder connections. But I suppose a decade of life
is what they consider acceptable.

Resoldering is a perfectly acceptable choice, especially if you use some
cement to support the parts on the circuit board while you are at it.

Mike

PB <p00lb0y@insightbb.com> wrote in
news:3cCdnRt7c_Vn_gDZnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@insightbb.co m:

> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> "PB" <p00lb0y@insightbb.com> wrote in message
>> news:la-dnXBXdOazhADZnZ2dnUVZ_q-dnZ2d@insightbb.com...
>>> PB wrote:
>>>> Greetings, all.
>>>>
>>>> I have the subject auto with 60K miles.
>>>>
>>>> A couple of times this year, the engine will not start after having
>>>> been driven for some time and in warm conditions. Most recently,
>>>> it failed to start after sitting in the sun for a couple of hours.
>>>> It did eventually start after opening the doors (where I sat
>>>> wondering if I should call for a tow) and thus my questions. As I
>>>> mentioned, it did start and ran just fine. It exhibited conditions
>>>> of being flooded, but is that possible with fuel injection? Is
>>>> there the normal carburetor accelerator pump present in FI systems?
>>>> The problem has not recurred.
>>>>
>>>> The engine starter was and did spin the engine the entire above
>>>> event but it would not convert to the normal engine running.
>>>>
>>>> Engine is well maintained and not modified in any way. Use Chevron
>>>> 93 octane fuel exclusively.
>>>>
>>>> A couple of opinions offered were:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Loosening the gas cap to allow gasoline vapors to equalize from
>>>> having vaporized in the tank. Here it was suggested I replace the
>>>> PCV valve.
>>>>
>>>> 2. A service person suggested a "main" relay was a known cause of
>>>> hot starting (hot as in the passenger compartment) failures.
>>>> Further this technician indicated this relay was underneath the
>>>> drivers side steering wheel/instrument panel.
>>>>
>>>> Any comments or advice on where to look?
>>>>
>>>> I even attempted to simulate the same conditions by moving car from
>>>> the cool garage to a direct sunlit day for several hours and tried
>>>> (with instant success) to start engine.
>>>>
>>>> I do so dislike intermittent problems.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>
>>>> PB
>>> I found this page:
>>>
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...html#mainrelay
>>>
>>> It is a little fuzzy on whether a 1994 Acura was a possible
>>> candidate for this problem. Any comments?
>>>
>>> PB
>>
>> You found the link you were looking for. Yes, you have one of the
>> infamous "main relays." And yes, the symptoms are classic for a bad
>> main relay. In fact, I strongly recommend you either fix or replace
>> the relay (see the link on that page for the fixing details) on
>> suspicion. If you aren't having trouble with it yet you will soon.
>>
>> My son has a '94 Teg and has replaced his relay in the last year. He
>> should be waking up in about 2 hours and I will pump him about
>> location and any special access considerations. IIRC a new relay is
>> about $70 US - enough to make repair attractive - and OEM is
>> preferable to aftermarket. But aftermarket sure beats a just plain
>> bad one!
>>
>> For the accelerator pump question... although electronic FI systems
>> don't have an accelerator pump, they are (all?) programmed to behave
>> as though they did! I imagine that is because it was easy enough to
>> do and it made FI behave more like people were used to. Anyway,
>> pumping the accelerator pedal with the ignition on and the engine not
>> started gives a rich start and holding the pedal down while starting
>> gives a lean start.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
> Thanks for the prompt reply.
>
> I am able to use a soldering iron. The traces and pads look far
> enough apart that the risk of bridging a solder joint seems minimal.
> So another question might be is the fix worth the effort, or, while I
> have the area exposed, is a new Acura part the better route for
> reliability?

I resoldered mine (94 Integra GSR) about 5 years ago,not a problem since.
The relay is on the left side of the driver's footwell,up under the trim
panel.I removed it to get easier access.


> In which case I would still re-flow the solder joints on the old one
> retaining it as a ready spare.
>
> Did the part manufacturing process address the defect and are new
> parts likely to be free of the problem?

Who knows?
It's doubtful that the relay maker even knows about the MR solder joint
problem or that they could do anything to correct it.



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

PB <p00lb0y@insightbb.com> wrote in
news:la-dnXBXdOazhADZnZ2dnUVZ_q-dnZ2d@insightbb.com:

> PB wrote:

> I found this page:
>
> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...html#mainrelay
>
> It is a little fuzzy on whether a 1994 Acura was a possible candidate
> for this problem. Any comments?


They ALL are, after about eight years or so...

So far, There has been little evidence that ANY Honda is immune to the
problem.


--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

TeGGeR® wrote:
> PB <p00lb0y@insightbb.com> wrote in
> news:la-dnXBXdOazhADZnZ2dnUVZ_q-dnZ2d@insightbb.com:
>
>> PB wrote:
>
>> I found this page:
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/start...html#mainrelay
>>
>> It is a little fuzzy on whether a 1994 Acura was a possible candidate
>> for this problem. Any comments?
>
>
> They ALL are, after about eight years or so...
>
> So far, There has been little evidence that ANY Honda is immune to the
> problem.
>
>
Is it difficult to remove the trim to gain access to the main relay?
Are the fasteners I will encounter snap-type, screw, other?

And in specific, is the main relay on the 1994 UNDER the dash area or to
the LEFT under the left-side footwell trim panel?

Thanks,

PB

PB <p00lb0y@insightbb.com> wrote in
news:uJSdnUI2pNnd1z3ZnZ2dnUVZ_oudnZ2d@insightbb.co m:

>>
> Is it difficult to remove the trim to gain access to the main relay?
> Are the fasteners I will encounter snap-type, screw, other?



See below.


>
> And in specific, is the main relay on the 1994 UNDER the dash area or to
> the LEFT under the left-side footwell trim panel?




It is above the hood latch, in much the same place as it is in the '92-'95
Civic.

See the location page:
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelay.html



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/