Honda Car Forum

Any suggestions?

My son just replaced his ignition wires on his 1991 Integra with new blue
ones, they look like high performance type. He was driving around for a
several weeks with no problems. This morning it would not start, NO spark at
the plugs.

- Checked the voltage to the primary winding ok!
- Checked the resistance of primary and secondary windings with spec. OK!
- Checked the spark directly at the out from the secondary winding to
ground, seems a little weak but it was sparking on and off.

Any one know what the voltage should be? (15 KV to 20 KV )

- Checked the distributor cap springs and continuity ok!

The old rotor had a fuse link incorporated in the rotor which was blown out.
Replace the rotor still no spark at spark plugs. The new rotor has done as
no fuse link.

I think the coil could be weak possibly ready to go?

Do you think by changing the old ignition wires to new wires could have
caused a problem? Maybe he should have just purchased standard OEM wires?

Please Help!

Thanks

"J Poy" <jpoy@sympatico.ca> wrote in
news:I7Bde.4695$VL3.238411@news20.bellglobal.com:

> Any suggestions?
>
> My son just replaced his ignition wires on his 1991 Integra with new
> blue ones, they look like high performance type.


You mean they look like aftermarket.

You've given me an idea: I think I'll start selling discount toilet paper
for twice the price. I'll just call it "high-performance" toilet paper.
It'll be the same damn asswipe, but somebody out there is going to pay for
"high-performance".



> He was driving around
> for a several weeks with no problems. This morning it would not start,
> NO spark at the plugs.


If you pull one of the plug wires at the plug, stick a screwdriver into the
boot to carry current, then hold the screwdriver shaft 1/8" from a ground
(NOT the battery!!), do you get a nice big, fat, loud spark?

Try each wire in turn.

Since you repoort a weak spark when you bypass the cap and rotor, the cap
and rotor are suspect. They're aftermarket too, right?

It is also possible that your son has now damaged his coil, and it is
finding at least a partial ground through the coil body. This can occur
because of poor-quality (aftermarket) or worn secondary components, or from
cranking the engine with the wires or distributor cap removed.


>
>
> Do you think by changing the old ignition wires to new wires could
> have caused a problem? Maybe he should have just purchased standard
> OEM wires?


With aftermarket, you're really taking a chance.

Your problem may be a partially-damaged coil or crappy secondary
components. If you can swing it, replace wires, cap and rotor with new OEM,
about $100. If that doesn't help, replace the coil.



--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"J Poy" <jpoy@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:I7Bde.4695$VL3.238411@news20.bellglobal.com.. .
> Any suggestions?
>
> My son just replaced his ignition wires on his 1991 Integra with new blue
> ones, they look like high performance type. He was driving around for a
> several weeks with no problems. This morning it would not start, NO spark
> at the plugs.
>
> - Checked the voltage to the primary winding ok!
> - Checked the resistance of primary and secondary windings with spec. OK!
> - Checked the spark directly at the out from the secondary winding to
> ground, seems a little weak but it was sparking on and off.
>
> Any one know what the voltage should be? (15 KV to 20 KV )
>
> - Checked the distributor cap springs and continuity ok!
>
> The old rotor had a fuse link incorporated in the rotor which was blown
> out.
> Replace the rotor still no spark at spark plugs. The new rotor has done as
> no fuse link.
>
> I think the coil could be weak possibly ready to go?
>
> Do you think by changing the old ignition wires to new wires could have
> caused a problem? Maybe he should have just purchased standard OEM wires?
>
> Please Help!
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
I think the coil is shorted internally. It won't put up with anything that
prevents it from having a load, things like bad plug wires.

Have him pull the coil out and look at it in the sunlight or other good
light. If he sees any dim starburst patterns about the diameter of a button
or a dime on the surface, it is bad news for the coil (even though it
measures okay). The coil can also fail without those starbursts, but it is
an easy check. My son also learned the hard way when he used the starter to
bump the engine of his Integra around when the distributor cap was off.

Mike

Thanks for your fast responses!

----- Original Message -----
From: "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m>
Newsgroups: alt.autos.acura
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: 1991 Integra Strange problem?


> "J Poy" <jpoy@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> news:I7Bde.4695$VL3.238411@news20.bellglobal.com:
>
>> Any suggestions?
>>
>> My son just replaced his ignition wires on his 1991 Integra with new
>> blue ones, they look like high performance type.
>
>
> You mean they look like aftermarket.

Yes they are aftermarket, they are not the orignal Honda wires.

>
> You've given me an idea: I think I'll start selling discount toilet paper
> for twice the price. I'll just call it "high-performance" toilet paper.
> It'll be the same damn asswipe, but somebody out there is going to pay for
> "high-performance".
>

LOL :-)

>
>> He was driving around
>> for a several weeks with no problems. This morning it would not start,
>> NO spark at the plugs.
>
>
> If you pull one of the plug wires at the plug, stick a screwdriver into
> the
> boot to carry current, then hold the screwdriver shaft 1/8" from a ground
> (NOT the battery!!), do you get a nice big, fat, loud spark?

Here is what I did orginally I pulled out each wire out one at a time and
externally installed a spark plug and grounded the plug, I did not see any
spark.

Opened the cap then I attached a wire from the secondary output to ground
(about 1/8") and I saw a spark. I didn't see a nice fat loud spark :-(

> Try each wire in turn.
>
> Since you repoort a weak spark when you bypass the cap and rotor, the cap
> and rotor are suspect. They're aftermarket too, right?

No, I think the parts are orignal Honda parts.

After I had seening there was a spark coming out from the secondary winding
I installed new rotor, I thought I might have solved the problem. NO
luck :-(

> It is also possible that your son has now damaged his coil, and it is
> finding at least a partial ground through the coil body. This can occur
> because of poor-quality (aftermarket) or worn secondary components, or
> from
> cranking the engine with the wires or distributor cap removed.
>

Yes could be?

When he changed his wires he should have replaced the rotor and distributor
cap with Honda parts. I am still wondering if the new after market wires he
installed may have caused the problem in the first place. Could be the
resistance are not the same as Honda wires? Strange thing is the rotor had
fuse link incorporated in it from the centre electro to the outer brass
contact that was open circuited.

>>
>>
>> Do you think by changing the old ignition wires to new wires could
>> have caused a problem? Maybe he should have just purchased standard
>> OEM wires?
>
>
> With aftermarket, you're really taking a chance.
>
> Your problem may be a partially-damaged coil or crappy secondary
> components. If you can swing it, replace wires, cap and rotor with new
> OEM,
> about $100. If that doesn't help, replace the coil.


Yes sounds like a good plan, just what I was thinking too. THANKS AGAIN!


>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Thanks Mike!

I am not sure about the coil as well it could be some of the secondary is
shorted out? If some of the turns are shorted like this, it could result in
lower output voltage. I would like to put a scope with a High voltage probe
on output to check the actual pulse height and pulse width. Anyone know if
there is picture of what the output should look like on a scope?

BTW. My son left for vacation down in Cuba just when his car stop working
should be back this Sat. it would be nice if I could help him.

______ HV
)
)
) <----- Low Output voltage
12v___)
)
)
____)

No matter what I would like to pin point what the problem is and what caused
it in the first place. The fuse link in the rotor was open circuited that
tells me, that something shorted out after the rotor contact. I suspected
the bright new blue ignition wires could be the culprit. I think he should
have just purchased the black stock Honda wires. Maybe it has something to
do with the # of ohms per ft.? I found if you purchase after market parts
you have double check everything especially the specifications.

Anyone else have problems like this when the replaced the ignition wires???


Thank you all again!



"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:QZednREHOMWzmOrfRVn-rg@sedona.net...
> "J Poy" <jpoy@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:I7Bde.4695$VL3.238411@news20.bellglobal.com.. .
>> Any suggestions?
>>
>> My son just replaced his ignition wires on his 1991 Integra with new blue
>> ones, they look like high performance type. He was driving around for a
>> several weeks with no problems. This morning it would not start, NO spark
>> at the plugs.
>>
>> - Checked the voltage to the primary winding ok!
>> - Checked the resistance of primary and secondary windings with spec. OK!
>> - Checked the spark directly at the out from the secondary winding to
>> ground, seems a little weak but it was sparking on and off.
>>
>> Any one know what the voltage should be? (15 KV to 20 KV )
>>
>> - Checked the distributor cap springs and continuity ok!
>>
>> The old rotor had a fuse link incorporated in the rotor which was blown
>> out.
>> Replace the rotor still no spark at spark plugs. The new rotor has done
>> as no fuse link.
>>
>> I think the coil could be weak possibly ready to go?
>>
>> Do you think by changing the old ignition wires to new wires could have
>> caused a problem? Maybe he should have just purchased standard OEM wires?
>>
>> Please Help!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>
> I think the coil is shorted internally. It won't put up with anything that
> prevents it from having a load, things like bad plug wires.
>
> Have him pull the coil out and look at it in the sunlight or other good
> light. If he sees any dim starburst patterns about the diameter of a
> button or a dime on the surface, it is bad news for the coil (even though
> it measures okay). The coil can also fail without those starbursts, but it
> is an easy check. My son also learned the hard way when he used the
> starter to bump the engine of his Integra around when the distributor cap
> was off.
>
> Mike
>

Tegger, Nice website with lots of good information. FAQ

One thing I read in the FAQ is to turn the motor manually and not via the
ignition this will prevent break down of the secondary winding.

My question is how to actually physically turn it where do you do that?
Basically where do I grab on and turn the motor?





"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns964AE9141A58Btegger@207.14.113.17...
> "J Poy" <jpoy@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> news:I7Bde.4695$VL3.238411@news20.bellglobal.com:
>
>> Any suggestions?
>>
>> My son just replaced his ignition wires on his 1991 Integra with new
>> blue ones, they look like high performance type.
>
>
> You mean they look like aftermarket.
>
> You've given me an idea: I think I'll start selling discount toilet paper
> for twice the price. I'll just call it "high-performance" toilet paper.
> It'll be the same damn asswipe, but somebody out there is going to pay for
> "high-performance".
>
>
>
>> He was driving around
>> for a several weeks with no problems. This morning it would not start,
>> NO spark at the plugs.
>
>
> If you pull one of the plug wires at the plug, stick a screwdriver into
> the
> boot to carry current, then hold the screwdriver shaft 1/8" from a ground
> (NOT the battery!!), do you get a nice big, fat, loud spark?
>
> Try each wire in turn.
>
> Since you repoort a weak spark when you bypass the cap and rotor, the cap
> and rotor are suspect. They're aftermarket too, right?
>
> It is also possible that your son has now damaged his coil, and it is
> finding at least a partial ground through the coil body. This can occur
> because of poor-quality (aftermarket) or worn secondary components, or
> from
> cranking the engine with the wires or distributor cap removed.
>
>
>>
>>
>> Do you think by changing the old ignition wires to new wires could
>> have caused a problem? Maybe he should have just purchased standard
>> OEM wires?
>
>
> With aftermarket, you're really taking a chance.
>
> Your problem may be a partially-damaged coil or crappy secondary
> components. If you can swing it, replace wires, cap and rotor with new
> OEM,
> about $100. If that doesn't help, replace the coil.
>
>
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"J Poy" <jpoy@sympatico.ca> wrote in
newsqQde.4986$VL3.319876@news20.bellglobal.com:

> Tegger, Nice website with lots of good information. FAQ
>
> One thing I read in the FAQ is to turn the motor manually and not via
> the ignition this will prevent break down of the secondary winding.
>
> My question is how to actually physically turn it where do you do
> that? Basically where do I grab on and turn the motor?
>


1) Turn the steering wheel fully to the left
2) Peek inside the LEFT FRONT wheel well immediately ahead of the wheel,
right next to the aperture where the driveshaft comes out
3) There is a rubber plug about 1.5" in diameter set into the plastic
fender liner
4) Pull that plug out, exposing the (in)famous crankshaft bolt, deep inside
the hole
5) You can now get a 19mm socket and about (12" worth of extensions) onto
the bolt
6) Turn COUNTER-clockwise until the engine is rotated the way you want

The rotation will not be smooth, but will get very difficult to turn as
each cylinder moves up its compression stroke. It will get suddenly easier
as the exhaust valve opens.

Do not turn CLOCKwise except for final alignment, such as when adjusting
valves.

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Howdy,

I think I have answer regarding the so called "fuse link" that I mentioned I
saw embedded into the rotor.
While I was review a Honda Civic schematic and noticed that on the VTEC
models there is resistor in series just at rotor contact.

I also found the box which the new set of ignition wires came in they are
NGK. They advertise allot of good things about these wires? One is there
half the resistance of normal ignition wires. (BTW he has NGK plugs as
well.)

I haven't really nailed down the problem yet, but this is as far as I have
gone, here's what I think happen.

The new NGK lower resistance wires (Higher current) cause the resistor over
heat and burnt out. This could cause the ignition coil to fail as well, I
hope not? I still got some spark and the winding resistance checkout ok.
(Crossing my fingers) I haven't purchased a new cap rotor or coil yet as I
think I will wait to my son comes home to decide what option he wants.

At the bare minimum I need a new rotor and cap to see if the coil still
works and verify that car starts and that there are not more problems.

As I see it he has to two options:

.... replaced the entire system with MSD coil rotor and cap to match his new
NGK wires. (I think this will give him a little more horse power and maybe a
little more mileage as well)

MSD Rotor $25, Cap $59 and Coil $69 he doesn't have to purchase new wires.
(NGK) Total $153 plus 15 % tax :-(

.... return the wires and purchase all Honda parts and wires.

If he purchases the Honda parts without change the wires back, they will
cause premature failure of the ignition system again.
Honda Parts Dealer: Rotor $55, Cap and coil $126 plus new wires didn't get
the price them. Total cost of $181 plus tax :-(

Funny thing I also noticed I haven't smelt any gas fumes while trying to
start his car. When I turn the ignition sw I can hear the fuel pump prime.

As I see it I have to get a spark at the plugs first, once I get that
hopefully the car will start?
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message
news:QZednREHOMWzmOrfRVn-rg@sedona.net...
> "J Poy" <jpoy@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:I7Bde.4695$VL3.238411@news20.bellglobal.com.. .
>> Any suggestions?
>>
>> My son just replaced his ignition wires on his 1991 Integra with new blue
>> ones, they look like high performance type. He was driving around for a
>> several weeks with no problems. This morning it would not start, NO spark
>> at the plugs.
>>
>> - Checked the voltage to the primary winding ok!
>> - Checked the resistance of primary and secondary windings with spec. OK!
>> - Checked the spark directly at the out from the secondary winding to
>> ground, seems a little weak but it was sparking on and off.
>>
>> Any one know what the voltage should be? (15 KV to 20 KV )
>>
>> - Checked the distributor cap springs and continuity ok!
>>
>> The old rotor had a fuse link incorporated in the rotor which was blown
>> out.
>> Replace the rotor still no spark at spark plugs. The new rotor has done
>> as no fuse link.
>>
>> I think the coil could be weak possibly ready to go?
>>
>> Do you think by changing the old ignition wires to new wires could have
>> caused a problem? Maybe he should have just purchased standard OEM wires?
>>
>> Please Help!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>
> I think the coil is shorted internally. It won't put up with anything that
> prevents it from having a load, things like bad plug wires.
>
> Have him pull the coil out and look at it in the sunlight or other good
> light. If he sees any dim starburst patterns about the diameter of a
> button or a dime on the surface, it is bad news for the coil (even though
> it measures okay). The coil can also fail without those starbursts, but it
> is an easy check. My son also learned the hard way when he used the
> starter to bump the engine of his Integra around when the distributor cap
> was off.
>
> Mike
>

Tegger,

Well I solve my son's problem just in time he's coming home from vacation
:-)

I guess it's my turn to give some information back to the group and think
this is a truly a unique experience.

Why you may ask? Please read how I solved his starting problem.

First test I did was with the LED to check that the igniter was working, it
check out ok.

....The rotor in his integra had a series resistor embedded in epoxy which
"failed". (Open circuited)
I used a DVM to verify this and I showed the rotor to several dealers
none had ever seen one like it.

.... The open circuit in the rotor caused the ignition coil to partially
fail. (Weak Spark)

Static test:

I visual inspected the coil while it was in the car no tracking or cracks
looked very good.
Then tested it with DVM and the resistance measurements showed the coil to
be GOOD. No shorts!

Dynamic test:

(You must be very careful if you do this test I used some High Voltage
gloves for safety.)

I removed the coil from the car and wired it up to my DC power supply using
a spark plug as a load on the secondary winding to ground. (Spark plug gap
0.39) Open and closed the 12v supply to the igniter coil primary. Got it no
spark! reduce the gap and I got weak spark.

Now that I had the coil out of the car in the sun light I got a magnified
glass to look the coil. At first everything looked ok, but I found that
there was a partial breakdown deep inside the output of the secondary. This
explain why I was getting the weak spark.

Finally I replaced the rotor, cap and ignition coil and his integra starts
like a charm. ($155 including Ontario sales tax.)

Tegger I have some photos of this strange rotor and breakdown of the
secondary winding. I do not have a nice website like yours to share with
others. If you give me you email address I will send them to you and if you
think the useful you might want to add them?

Once Again Thank you for you help!

Jay









"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns964BD9C1A77DFtegger@207.14.113.17...
> "J Poy" <jpoy@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> newsqQde.4986$VL3.319876@news20.bellglobal.com:
>
>> Tegger, Nice website with lots of good information. FAQ
>>
>> One thing I read in the FAQ is to turn the motor manually and not via
>> the ignition this will prevent break down of the secondary winding.
>>
>> My question is how to actually physically turn it where do you do
>> that? Basically where do I grab on and turn the motor?
>>
>
>
> 1) Turn the steering wheel fully to the left
> 2) Peek inside the LEFT FRONT wheel well immediately ahead of the wheel,
> right next to the aperture where the driveshaft comes out
> 3) There is a rubber plug about 1.5" in diameter set into the plastic
> fender liner
> 4) Pull that plug out, exposing the (in)famous crankshaft bolt, deep
> inside
> the hole
> 5) You can now get a 19mm socket and about (12" worth of extensions) onto
> the bolt
> 6) Turn COUNTER-clockwise until the engine is rotated the way you want
>
> The rotation will not be smooth, but will get very difficult to turn as
> each cylinder moves up its compression stroke. It will get suddenly easier
> as the exhaust valve opens.
>
> Do not turn CLOCKwise except for final alignment, such as when adjusting
> valves.
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

"J Poy" <jpoy@sympatico.ca> wrote in
news:clUee.21069$VL3.820595@news20.bellglobal.com:

> Tegger,
>
> Well I solve my son's problem just in time he's coming home from
> vacation
>:-)
>
> I guess it's my turn to give some information back to the group and

> think this is a truly a unique experience.


<snip substantial Sherlockery>

That's what makes Usenet work! You'd be surprised (or maybe not...) how
many people never give updates!

So you're saying the failed rotor resistor gave the current no place to go
except through the body of the coil, thus destroying it?

What do you figure wrecked the rotor's resistor?


>
> Tegger I have some photos of this strange rotor and breakdown of the
> secondary winding. I do not have a nice website like yours to share
> with others. If you give me you email address I will send them to you
> and if you think the useful you might want to add them?



Absolutely.

I heartily welcome anything you have to offer on this subject. You'll get
attribution within the page I set up for this thing (screen name or other
name of your choice).

email to tegger (at) tegger.com

Remove spaces and replace the (at) with the correct @ symbol.

Sorry for the obfuscation, but spam is not something I desire in my
inbox...

--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/