Honda Car Forum

Hi all -

I have an 02 TL-S, purchased at ~20K miles, now at 64K miles. When I bought
the car (CarMax), the rotors needed to be resurfaced - done by CarMax. I
had them turned again at ~30K miles by the dealer, then all 4 rotors and
pads replaced by Acura for free under a Service Bulletin at ~40K miles (the
bulletin was for the pads - and included new pads and rotors - WOOT!). I
had these turned again at ~50K, right before the warranty expired. At 60K,
they needed it again, so I took it back to the dealer hoping they would
resolve this once and for all as this is an "ongoing" problem - no dice.
The dealer was sympathetic, and forwarded the request to Corporate Acura who
told me over the phone after a 3 day wait that they will not warranty rotors
outside of the 50K coverage, period. So I waited a few months, and just had
them turned again with the purchase of new tires at 64K. That is FIVE times
in ~44K miles (20, 30, 40, 50, 64).

I really don't have a problem with the 50K issue as I know this is
considered a "wear item", and the pads are wearing evenly - so I don't
believe this is an issue with the calipers (but looking for guidance). Is
there anything outside of my driving style that could explain the problems I
am having with these? This was my last "turn" on this set before they need
to be replaced again (in 10K miles), and I will likely go with slotted or
drilled for my next set to hopefully alleviate the problem. I'm 35 years
old and drive around most of the time with a 2 year old in the back seat - I
don't think I would really consider myself an aggressive driver. My
previous cars were a '91 Integra, '87 200SX, '88 Legend, and '99 Honda
Accord......I never had this type of problem with any of these. I also
know the TLS has oversized rotors compared to the regular TL anyway, and I
would expect a longer life from these things - everyone I talk to (including
the dealer) says this is not normal, but say everything else looks OK and
the brakes seem to stop just fine - no pulling, etc., when braking.

Any ideas ?

Thanks!

- Mike

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:13:14 GMT, "Mike" <hlshadow@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Hi all -
>
>I have an 02 TL-S, purchased at ~20K miles, now at 64K miles. When I bought
>the car (CarMax), the rotors needed to be resurfaced - done by CarMax. I
>had them turned again at ~30K miles by the dealer, then all 4 rotors and
>pads replaced by Acura for free under a Service Bulletin at ~40K miles (the
>bulletin was for the pads - and included new pads and rotors - WOOT!). I
>had these turned again at ~50K, right before the warranty expired. At 60K,
>they needed it again, so I took it back to the dealer hoping they would
>resolve this once and for all as this is an "ongoing" problem - no dice.
>The dealer was sympathetic, and forwarded the request to Corporate Acura who
>told me over the phone after a 3 day wait that they will not warranty rotors
>outside of the 50K coverage, period. So I waited a few months, and just had
>them turned again with the purchase of new tires at 64K. That is FIVE times
>in ~44K miles (20, 30, 40, 50, 64).
>
>I really don't have a problem with the 50K issue as I know this is
>considered a "wear item", and the pads are wearing evenly - so I don't
>believe this is an issue with the calipers (but looking for guidance). Is
>there anything outside of my driving style that could explain the problems I
>am having with these? This was my last "turn" on this set before they need
>to be replaced again (in 10K miles), and I will likely go with slotted or
>drilled for my next set to hopefully alleviate the problem. I'm 35 years
>old and drive around most of the time with a 2 year old in the back seat - I
>don't think I would really consider myself an aggressive driver. My
>previous cars were a '91 Integra, '87 200SX, '88 Legend, and '99 Honda
>Accord......I never had this type of problem with any of these. I also
>know the TLS has oversized rotors compared to the regular TL anyway, and I
>would expect a longer life from these things - everyone I talk to (including
>the dealer) says this is not normal, but say everything else looks OK and
>the brakes seem to stop just fine - no pulling, etc., when braking.
>
>Any ideas ?
>
>Thanks!
>
>- Mike
>
>
>
There is something strange going on. To put it in perspective, my 90
Legend has 175K miles. The fronts have been turned ONCE, very lightly.
That was because the tell tales broke off on BOTH front pads and the
pads wore all the way down and scraped a little. That's with over 130K
miles with metallic pads.

What indicates that the rotors need to be turned?

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:13:14 GMT, "Mike" <hlshadow@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Hi all -
>
>I have an 02 TL-S, purchased at ~20K miles, now at 64K miles. When I bought
>the car (CarMax), the rotors needed to be resurfaced -

Why?

> done by CarMax. I
>had them turned again at ~30K miles by the dealer,

Again... why?

then all 4 rotors and
>pads replaced by Acura for free under a Service Bulletin at ~40K miles (the
>bulletin was for the pads - and included new pads and rotors - WOOT!). I
>had these turned again at ~50K,

What for? Chances are they didn't need it.

>right before the warranty expired. At 60K,
>they needed it again,

Again why? Who's telling you all this 'resurfacing' needs to be done?

>so I took it back to the dealer hoping they would
>resolve this once and for all as this is an "ongoing" problem - no dice.

Of course not! Their bottom line needs you!

>The dealer was sympathetic, and forwarded the request to Corporate Acura who
>told me over the phone after a 3 day wait that they will not warranty rotors
>outside of the 50K coverage, period. So I waited a few months, and just had
>them turned again

What for? What's the need for all this rotor turning business? Never
turn Honda rotors, it's not worth it. If they're bad enough to really
need turning ( grooved more than 1/8 inch) replace them.

>with the purchase of new tires at 64K. That is FIVE times
>in ~44K miles (20, 30, 40, 50, 64).

And I'll bet not one of them was necessary!

>I really don't have a problem with the 50K issue as I know this is
>considered a "wear item", and the pads are wearing evenly - so I don't
>believe this is an issue with the calipers (but looking for guidance). Is
>there anything outside of my driving style that could explain the problems I
>am having with these?

Yeah, somebody is telling you your rotors need turning when they
don't.

>This was my last "turn" on this set before they need
>to be replaced again (in 10K miles), and I will likely go with slotted or
>drilled for my next set to hopefully alleviate the problem.

Do you race? Do you drive down steep mountain grades? If not you don't
need slotted rotors. You need an honest mechanic, and I don't mean a
dealer.

>the brakes seem to stop just fine - no pulling, etc., when braking.
>
>Any ideas ?

Yeah. Next time you're told your rotors need turning, spit in the guys
eye and go look for an honest mechanic.

See also: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#brakes

Um, ouch. :-)

I should note that all of these save the last one were done for free....so
no real skin off my back until recently.

Thanks for the reply. As for WHY I have them done - vibration when braking
is the symptom...begins at higher speeds, and as time goes on becomes more
noticeable even at lower speeds. I have *Zero* problems outside of braking.
Turning / replacing the rotors has resolved the problem every time so
far.....but just for a little while. I realize replacement may be better
than turning, but if replacements only last the same mileage - why bother
with the expense? My most recent visit for tires included brake inspection,
including a nice long discussion with the mechanic who could find nothing
wrong outside of the rotors, and measurements on the rotors confirmed that
they did indeed need to be turned (Sorry I don't remember the numbers). The
dealer supposedly checked each time as well, and came to the same
conclusion.

I am trying to determine WHY I should spit in their faces - can you give me
a reason why I might be experiencing these symptoms, since I have even brake
pad wear, and why turning the rotors would resolve it temporarily ? I
should note I have heard in the past that improperly torqued lug nuts can
cause issues with rotors - I always loosen and re-torque my wheels after any
service visit to 80 ft/lbs. I also have not noted any rust, etc., when
mounting the tire that I would expect to cause a vibration. I also don't
race, and I live in the flatlands. :-)

Thanks!

- Mike

"John Ings" <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message
news:dhi9211hi3i4lgsae19c2dml9bchjt8m0a@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:13:14 GMT, "Mike" <hlshadow@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi all -
> >
> >I have an 02 TL-S, purchased at ~20K miles, now at 64K miles. When I
bought
> >the car (CarMax), the rotors needed to be resurfaced -
>
> Why?
>
> > done by CarMax. I
> >had them turned again at ~30K miles by the dealer,
>
> Again... why?
>
> then all 4 rotors and
> >pads replaced by Acura for free under a Service Bulletin at ~40K miles
(the
> >bulletin was for the pads - and included new pads and rotors - WOOT!). I
> >had these turned again at ~50K,
>
> What for? Chances are they didn't need it.
>
> >right before the warranty expired. At 60K,
> >they needed it again,
>
> Again why? Who's telling you all this 'resurfacing' needs to be done?
>
> >so I took it back to the dealer hoping they would
> >resolve this once and for all as this is an "ongoing" problem - no dice.
>
> Of course not! Their bottom line needs you!
>
> >The dealer was sympathetic, and forwarded the request to Corporate Acura
who
> >told me over the phone after a 3 day wait that they will not warranty
rotors
> >outside of the 50K coverage, period. So I waited a few months, and just
had
> >them turned again
>
> What for? What's the need for all this rotor turning business? Never
> turn Honda rotors, it's not worth it. If they're bad enough to really
> need turning ( grooved more than 1/8 inch) replace them.
>
> >with the purchase of new tires at 64K. That is FIVE times
> >in ~44K miles (20, 30, 40, 50, 64).
>
> And I'll bet not one of them was necessary!
>
> >I really don't have a problem with the 50K issue as I know this is
> >considered a "wear item", and the pads are wearing evenly - so I don't
> >believe this is an issue with the calipers (but looking for guidance).
Is
> >there anything outside of my driving style that could explain the
problems I
> >am having with these?
>
> Yeah, somebody is telling you your rotors need turning when they
> don't.
>
> >This was my last "turn" on this set before they need
> >to be replaced again (in 10K miles), and I will likely go with slotted or
> >drilled for my next set to hopefully alleviate the problem.
>
> Do you race? Do you drive down steep mountain grades? If not you don't
> need slotted rotors. You need an honest mechanic, and I don't mean a
> dealer.
>
> >the brakes seem to stop just fine - no pulling, etc., when braking.
> >
> >Any ideas ?
>
> Yeah. Next time you're told your rotors need turning, spit in the guys
> eye and go look for an honest mechanic.
>
> See also: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/faq.html#brakes
>
>
>

Um, ouch. :-)

I should note that all of these save the last one were done for free....so
no real skin off my back until recently.

Thanks for the reply. As for WHY I have them done - vibration when braking
is the symptom...begins at higher speeds, and as time goes on becomes more
noticeable even at lower speeds. I have *Zero* problems outside of braking.
Turning / replacing the rotors has resolved the problem every time so
far.....but just for a little while. I realize replacement may be better
than turning, but if replacements only last the same mileage - why bother
with the expense? My most recent visit for tires included brake inspection,
including a nice long discussion with the mechanic who could find nothing
wrong outside of the rotors, and measurements on the rotors confirmed that
they did indeed need to be turned (Sorry I don't remember the numbers). The
dealer supposedly checked each time as well, and came to the same
conclusion.

I am trying to determine WHY I should spit in their faces - can you give me
a reason why I might be experiencing these symptoms, since I have even brake
pad wear, and why turning the rotors would resolve it temporarily ? I
should note I have heard in the past that improperly torqued lug nuts can
cause issues with rotors - I always loosen and re-torque my wheels after any
service visit to 80 ft/lbs. I also have not noted any rust, etc., when
mounting the tire that I would expect to cause a vibration. I also don't
race, and I live in the flatlands. :-)

Thanks!

- Mike

"Natman" <nat_mann@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4224c38f.12644652@netnews.comcast.net...
> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:13:14 GMT, "Mike" <hlshadow@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi all -
> >
> >I have an 02 TL-S, purchased at ~20K miles, now at 64K miles. When I
bought
> >the car (CarMax), the rotors needed to be resurfaced - done by CarMax. I
> >had them turned again at ~30K miles by the dealer, then all 4 rotors and
> >pads replaced by Acura for free under a Service Bulletin at ~40K miles
(the
> >bulletin was for the pads - and included new pads and rotors - WOOT!). I
> >had these turned again at ~50K, right before the warranty expired. At
60K,
> >they needed it again, so I took it back to the dealer hoping they would
> >resolve this once and for all as this is an "ongoing" problem - no dice.
> >The dealer was sympathetic, and forwarded the request to Corporate Acura
who
> >told me over the phone after a 3 day wait that they will not warranty
rotors
> >outside of the 50K coverage, period. So I waited a few months, and just
had
> >them turned again with the purchase of new tires at 64K. That is FIVE
times
> >in ~44K miles (20, 30, 40, 50, 64).
> >
> >I really don't have a problem with the 50K issue as I know this is
> >considered a "wear item", and the pads are wearing evenly - so I don't
> >believe this is an issue with the calipers (but looking for guidance).
Is
> >there anything outside of my driving style that could explain the
problems I
> >am having with these? This was my last "turn" on this set before they
need
> >to be replaced again (in 10K miles), and I will likely go with slotted or
> >drilled for my next set to hopefully alleviate the problem. I'm 35 years
> >old and drive around most of the time with a 2 year old in the back
seat - I
> >don't think I would really consider myself an aggressive driver. My
> >previous cars were a '91 Integra, '87 200SX, '88 Legend, and '99 Honda
> >Accord......I never had this type of problem with any of these. I also
> >know the TLS has oversized rotors compared to the regular TL anyway, and
I
> >would expect a longer life from these things - everyone I talk to
(including
> >the dealer) says this is not normal, but say everything else looks OK and
> >the brakes seem to stop just fine - no pulling, etc., when braking.
> >
> >Any ideas ?
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >- Mike
> >
> >
> >
> There is something strange going on. To put it in perspective, my 90
> Legend has 175K miles. The fronts have been turned ONCE, very lightly.
> That was because the tell tales broke off on BOTH front pads and the
> pads wore all the way down and scraped a little. That's with over 130K
> miles with metallic pads.
>
> What indicates that the rotors need to be turned?

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 02:43:46 GMT, "Mike" <hlshadow@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Thanks for the reply. As for WHY I have them done - vibration when braking
>is the symptom...begins at higher speeds, and as time goes on becomes more
>noticeable even at lower speeds.

What sort of vibration? Pedal pulsation or just a sort of juddery
feeling? I drive in mountain country and have noticed a mild vibration
when the brakes are hot that goes away when they cool.

> I have *Zero* problems outside of braking.
>Turning / replacing the rotors has resolved the problem every time so
>far.....but just for a little while. I realize replacement may be better
>than turning, but if replacements only last the same mileage - why bother
>with the expense? My most recent visit for tires included brake inspection,
>including a nice long discussion with the mechanic who could find nothing
>wrong outside of the rotors, and measurements on the rotors confirmed that
>they did indeed need to be turned

Because of what? Thickness variation? Scouring?
Are your wheel bearings OK?

> (Sorry I don't remember the numbers). The
>dealer supposedly checked each time as well, and came to the same
>conclusion.

Here's an extensive dissertation on the subject:
http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf100326.htm

>I am trying to determine WHY I should spit in their faces -

Well that's hyperbole, but I'm of the opinion that rotor turning is
done far too often and for no good reason. I've been working on my own
disc brakes for 30 years and have yet to turn a rotor. I've had
newsgroup exchanges with mechanics who say that they turn rotors on
customer's cars as a CYA procedure, to prevent callbacks. They admit
they wouldn't turn the rotor if it was their own car.

>can you give me
>a reason why I might be experiencing these symptoms,

If the rotor actually is out of spec with thickness variations, wheel
bearings come to mind. See the website above for details.

>since I have even brake
>pad wear, and why turning the rotors would resolve it temporarily ? I
>should note I have heard in the past that improperly torqued lug nuts can
>cause issues with rotors -

That's been a bone of contention in this newsgroup before.
Some say yay, and some say nay.

>I always loosen and re-torque my wheels after any
>service visit to 80 ft/lbs. I also have not noted any rust, etc., when
>mounting the tire that I would expect to cause a vibration. I also don't
>race, and I live in the flatlands. :-)

All a slotted rotor can do for you is to dissipate the vapour that
tends to form between pad and rotor under extreme braking.
Aftermarket slotted rotors might be of better quality metal.

"Mike" <hlshadow@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:CL9Vd.10607$ha.732264@twister.southeast.rr.co m...
> Um, ouch. :-)
>
> I should note that all of these save the last one were done for free....so
> no real skin off my back until recently.
>
> Thanks for the reply. As for WHY I have them done - vibration when
> braking
> is the symptom...begins at higher speeds, and as time goes on becomes more
> noticeable even at lower speeds. I have *Zero* problems outside of
> braking.
> Turning / replacing the rotors has resolved the problem every time so
> far.....but just for a little while. I realize replacement may be better
> than turning, but if replacements only last the same mileage - why bother
> with the expense? My most recent visit for tires included brake
> inspection,
> including a nice long discussion with the mechanic who could find nothing
> wrong outside of the rotors, and measurements on the rotors confirmed that
> they did indeed need to be turned (Sorry I don't remember the numbers).
> The
> dealer supposedly checked each time as well, and came to the same
> conclusion.
>
Not an expert, but my experience is that warped rotors often result from
overtightening the lug nuts. Once I started using a torque wrench on lug
nuts I stopped having warped rotors.

Mike

Do you by chance drive with one foot on the brake pedal at all times? Maybe the
Acura pedal is a little more sensitive than you are used to and you are keeping
the brakes hot and causing excessive wear on the rotors due to the constant
drag.

John

Mike wrote:

> Hi all -
>
> I have an 02 TL-S, purchased at ~20K miles, now at 64K miles. When I bought
> the car (CarMax), the rotors needed to be resurfaced - done by CarMax. I
> had them turned again at ~30K miles by the dealer, then all 4 rotors and
> pads replaced by Acura for free under a Service Bulletin at ~40K miles (the
> bulletin was for the pads - and included new pads and rotors - WOOT!). I
> had these turned again at ~50K, right before the warranty expired. At 60K,
> they needed it again, so I took it back to the dealer hoping they would
> resolve this once and for all as this is an "ongoing" problem - no dice.
> The dealer was sympathetic, and forwarded the request to Corporate Acura who
> told me over the phone after a 3 day wait that they will not warranty rotors
> outside of the 50K coverage, period. So I waited a few months, and just had
> them turned again with the purchase of new tires at 64K. That is FIVE times
> in ~44K miles (20, 30, 40, 50, 64).
>
> I really don't have a problem with the 50K issue as I know this is
> considered a "wear item", and the pads are wearing evenly - so I don't
> believe this is an issue with the calipers (but looking for guidance). Is
> there anything outside of my driving style that could explain the problems I
> am having with these? This was my last "turn" on this set before they need
> to be replaced again (in 10K miles), and I will likely go with slotted or
> drilled for my next set to hopefully alleviate the problem. I'm 35 years
> old and drive around most of the time with a 2 year old in the back seat - I
> don't think I would really consider myself an aggressive driver. My
> previous cars were a '91 Integra, '87 200SX, '88 Legend, and '99 Honda
> Accord......I never had this type of problem with any of these. I also
> know the TLS has oversized rotors compared to the regular TL anyway, and I
> would expect a longer life from these things - everyone I talk to (including
> the dealer) says this is not normal, but say everything else looks OK and
> the brakes seem to stop just fine - no pulling, etc., when braking.
>
> Any ideas ?
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Mike

"Mike" <hlshadow@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:eM4Vd.6031$QC5.382834@twister.southeast.rr.co m:

> Um, ouch. :-)
>
> I should note that all of these save the last one were done for
> free....so no real skin off my back until recently.
>
> Thanks for the reply. As for WHY I have them done - vibration when
> braking is the symptom...begins at higher speeds, and as time goes on
> becomes more noticeable even at lower speeds. I have *Zero* problems
> outside of braking. Turning / replacing the rotors has resolved the
> problem every time so far.....but just for a little while. I realize
> replacement may be better than turning, but if replacements only last
> the same mileage - why bother with the expense? My most recent visit
> for tires included brake inspection, including a nice long discussion
> with the mechanic who could find nothing wrong outside of the rotors,
> and measurements on the rotors confirmed that they did indeed need to
> be turned (Sorry I don't remember the numbers). The dealer supposedly
> checked each time as well, and came to the same conclusion.
>
> I am trying to determine WHY I should spit in their faces - can you
> give me a reason why I might be experiencing these symptoms, since I
> have even brake pad wear, and why turning the rotors would resolve it
> temporarily ? I should note I have heard in the past that improperly
> torqued lug nuts can cause issues with rotors - I always loosen and
> re-torque my wheels after any service visit to 80 ft/lbs.

By then,the warping may have already started.

>I also have
> not noted any rust, etc., when mounting the tire that I would expect
> to cause a vibration. I also don't race, and I live in the flatlands.
> :-)
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Mike


Does this always happen on the same wheel?
(maybe a wheel has unlevel surfaces on the inside that mates to the
rotor,warping it)
Maybe the problem moves as you rotate wheels?
Do you tighten the lugs in a cross-pattern,or just go around,one after
another?
Do you snug them down first,then torque,or just tighten to torque spec?
Perhaps one stud has thread damage,throwing off the torque reading?

I believe that rotors are only able to be turned once,then they get too
thin to be turned again.(legally)
Some here are of the opinion that turning the rotors even once makes them
prone to warping.
Warping would cause vibration when braking.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in message
news:Xns960EDEA9EEAC6jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
> "Mike" <hlshadow@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:eM4Vd.6031$QC5.382834@twister.southeast.rr.co m:
>
>> I am trying to determine WHY I should spit in their faces - can you
>> give me a reason why I might be experiencing these symptoms, since I
>> have even brake pad wear, and why turning the rotors would resolve it
>> temporarily ? I should note I have heard in the past that improperly
>> torqued lug nuts can cause issues with rotors - I always loosen and
>> re-torque my wheels after any service visit to 80 ft/lbs.
>
> By then,the warping may have already started.
>
>>I also have
>> not noted any rust, etc., when mounting the tire that I would expect
>> to cause a vibration. I also don't race, and I live in the flatlands.
>> :-)
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> - Mike
>
>
> Does this always happen on the same wheel?
> (maybe a wheel has unlevel surfaces on the inside that mates to the
> rotor,warping it)
> Maybe the problem moves as you rotate wheels?
> Do you tighten the lugs in a cross-pattern,or just go around,one after
> another?
> Do you snug them down first,then torque,or just tighten to torque spec?
> Perhaps one stud has thread damage,throwing off the torque reading?
>
> I believe that rotors are only able to be turned once,then they get too
> thin to be turned again.(legally)
> Some here are of the opinion that turning the rotors even once makes them
> prone to warping.
> Warping would cause vibration when braking.
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik
> at
> kua.net

Count me in that group who suspects rotors that have been turned are more
susceptible to warping. I don't have any evidence but I did stop having
rotors turned as soon as I could afford to. My belief is that the reason for
minimum thickness being less than new thickness is to allow for wear. Also,
I think rotors that have been turned because they were warped will re-warp
because of stresses formed during braking when they were warped - it seems
likely any rotor that doesn't brake evenly will also heat unevenly during
braking.

Somebody recently directed me to a website that had a section on brake rotor
warping. It made a lot of sense, pointing out that what we speak of as
"warping" isn't lateral runout, where the rotor is bent, but is variation in
the thickness of the rotor as it rotates. Just like the acceleration bumps
on a dirt road, the thickened areas get worse as time goes on.

Disclaimer - I am not an expert on this, these are my own beliefs.

Mike