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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 29 Aug 2003, 03:58 pm
Gabriel Afana
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Posts: n/a
Default I got new rotors, should I replace pads?

about 15k miles ago I had to change my front pads on my '99 TL. I replaced
them with carbon ceramic pads or whatever it is. They were very expensive
and were suppose to last a while, be quiet and not make dust and all that
good stuff. Well about 7k miles after I changed the pads....my rotors got
warped (steering wheel violently shakes when braking at high speed). I got
my rotors turned (turned on the car....again, very expensive!), and the
problem was gone! I didn't change the pads because the guy that turned the
rotors said the pads are fine...its just the rotors heat up and cool to
quickly and they warp.
So anyways, my rotors are warped again!!! rediculous is what it is.
I've read that acura has crappy rotors that require soft pads otherwise they
warp. I guess since I put the ceramic pads, they were too hard and are
causing problems. So I went to tireracks and bought two brembo replacement
rotors.

MY QUESTION IS: Do I need to change my pads (only reason I ask is because
they were very expenisve and are still reletively new) when I replace the
rotors?

Gabe



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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 29 Aug 2003, 05:08 pm
John Ings
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: I got new rotors, should I replace pads?

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:58:19 GMT, "Gabriel Afana"
<adtomi@adelphia.net> wrote:

>about 15k miles ago I had to change my front pads on my '99 TL. I replaced
>them with carbon ceramic pads or whatever it is. They were very expensive
>and were suppose to last a while, be quiet and not make dust and all that
>good stuff. Well about 7k miles after I changed the pads....my rotors got
>warped (steering wheel violently shakes when braking at high speed). I got
>my rotors turned (turned on the car....again, very expensive!),


Don't. Turning rotors just isn't worth it. They only lasta few months
after being turned.

>and the
>problem was gone! I didn't change the pads because the guy that turned the
>rotors said the pads are fine...its just the rotors heat up and cool to
>quickly and they warp.


So don't cool them quickly. For instance if the brakes have been used
hard, don't hold the car at stoplight with your foot on the brake
pedal. Use the park brake.

> So anyways, my rotors are warped again!!!


Naturally.

>rediculous is what it is.
>I've read that acura has crappy rotors that require soft pads otherwise they
>warp. I guess since I put the ceramic pads, they were too hard and are
>causing problems. So I went to tireracks and bought two brembo replacement
>rotors.
>
>MY QUESTION IS: Do I need to change my pads


Probably not.

But make sure some gomer doesn't put your lug nuts on with an impact
wrench. That's a cause of rotor warp.



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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 30 Aug 2003, 11:54 am
Natman
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: I got new rotors, should I replace pads?

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:08:20 -0700, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org>
wrote:


>
>>and the
>>problem was gone! I didn't change the pads because the guy that turned the
>>rotors said the pads are fine...its just the rotors heat up and cool to
>>quickly and they warp.

>
>So don't cool them quickly. For instance if the brakes have been used
>hard, don't hold the car at stoplight with your foot on the brake
>pedal. Use the park brake.
>

Could you explain exactly how holding your car with the parking brake
prevents rotor warp?
>
>But make sure some gomer doesn't put your lug nuts on with an impact
>wrench. That's a cause of rotor warp.
>

Again, could you explain how tightening the lug nuts in the center of
the hub warps the rotor?

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 30 Aug 2003, 12:57 pm
John Ings
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: I got new rotors, should I replace pads?

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:54:18 GMT, natman@gosfgiants.com (Natman)
wrote:

>>>and the
>>>problem was gone! I didn't change the pads because the guy that turned the
>>>rotors said the pads are fine...its just the rotors heat up and cool to
>>>quickly and they warp.

>>
>>So don't cool them quickly. For instance if the brakes have been used
>>hard, don't hold the car at stoplight with your foot on the brake
>>pedal. Use the park brake.
>>

>Could you explain exactly how holding your car with the parking brake
>prevents rotor warp?


It doesn't absolutely eliminate rotor warp, it just eliminates one of
many causes. If the rotors are very hot and you're holding the pads
against them, they will cool unevenly.

The back rotors, where the park brake is, supply only a small part of
the braking effort and don't get so hot.

>>But make sure some gomer doesn't put your lug nuts on with an impact
>>wrench. That's a cause of rotor warp.
>>

>Again, could you explain how tightening the lug nuts in the center of
>the hub warps the rotor?


Honda rotors are shaped like a straw hat. They have four holes that
fit over the hub lugs and are held against the hub only by a couple of
small phillips screws until the wheel is put on. Then the lug nuts
force them hard against the hub.

If you watch the average service station mechanic or tire shop
employee put wheels on, they use an impact wrench set way too high,
and they tighten the nuts one after the other in a clockwise or
couter-clockwise order. They should be using one of those X shaped lug
wrenches or better still a torque wrench to hand tighten the lug nuts
in pairs, first one, then the one diagonally opposite.

Some Honda models don't use those hat-shaped rotors, but their rotors
are a nightmare to change because you have to undo at least one ball
joint.




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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 31 Aug 2003, 12:23 am
Franz Bestuchev
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: I got new rotors, should I replace pads?

John Ings wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:54:18 GMT, natman@gosfgiants.com (Natman)
> wrote:
>
>
>>>>and the
>>>>problem was gone! I didn't change the pads because the guy that turned the
>>>>rotors said the pads are fine...its just the rotors heat up and cool to
>>>>quickly and they warp.
>>>
>>>So don't cool them quickly. For instance if the brakes have been used
>>>hard, don't hold the car at stoplight with your foot on the brake
>>>pedal. Use the park brake.
>>>

>>
>>Could you explain exactly how holding your car with the parking brake
>>prevents rotor warp?

>
>
> It doesn't absolutely eliminate rotor warp, it just eliminates one of
> many causes. If the rotors are very hot and you're holding the pads
> against them, they will cool unevenly.
>
> The back rotors, where the park brake is, supply only a small part of
> the braking effort and don't get so hot.
>
>
>>>But make sure some gomer doesn't put your lug nuts on with an impact
>>>wrench. That's a cause of rotor warp.
>>>

>>
>>Again, could you explain how tightening the lug nuts in the center of
>>the hub warps the rotor?

>
>
> Honda rotors are shaped like a straw hat. They have four holes that
> fit over the hub lugs and are held against the hub only by a couple of
> small phillips screws until the wheel is put on. Then the lug nuts
> force them hard against the hub.
>
> If you watch the average service station mechanic or tire shop
> employee put wheels on, they use an impact wrench set way too high,
> and they tighten the nuts one after the other in a clockwise or
> couter-clockwise order. They should be using one of those X shaped lug
> wrenches or better still a torque wrench to hand tighten the lug nuts
> in pairs, first one, then the one diagonally opposite.
>
> Some Honda models don't use those hat-shaped rotors, but their rotors
> are a nightmare to change because you have to undo at least one ball
> joint.
>
>
>
>


It seems to me that you would have to have scorching hot rotors for this
to make a difference. Even when you let off the pedal it's not as if the
pads are moving significantly away from the rotor, certainly not
anywhere near enough for there to be air flow equivalent to the exposed
portion of the rotor. Spin the rotors with the car off the ground and
you can hear the slight drag of the pads. This advice may be one of
those things that is measureable in the lab but inconsequential in real
life.

You've also got to consider that if you follow this advice you will be
sitting at a stop with no brake lights on, I'd rather have warped rotors
than a crushed in rear end because the guy behind me didn't know I was
at a full stop.

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 31 Aug 2003, 12:20 pm
Natman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: I got new rotors, should I replace pads?

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 10:57:30 -0700, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org>
wrote:

>On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:54:18 GMT, natman@gosfgiants.com (Natman)
>wrote:
>
>>>>and the
>>>>problem was gone! I didn't change the pads because the guy that turned the
>>>>rotors said the pads are fine...its just the rotors heat up and cool to
>>>>quickly and they warp.
>>>
>>>So don't cool them quickly. For instance if the brakes have been used
>>>hard, don't hold the car at stoplight with your foot on the brake
>>>pedal. Use the park brake.
>>>

>>Could you explain exactly how holding your car with the parking brake
>>prevents rotor warp?

>
>It doesn't absolutely eliminate rotor warp, it just eliminates one of
>many causes. If the rotors are very hot and you're holding the pads
>against them, they will cool unevenly.
>
>The back rotors, where the park brake is, supply only a small part of
>the braking effort and don't get so hot.


I guess I can see how this might contribute to warpage, but the
primary cause is that the rotors have grossly overheated. If you don't
want them to warp, stop abusing them.
>
>>>But make sure some gomer doesn't put your lug nuts on with an impact
>>>wrench. That's a cause of rotor warp.
>>>

>>Again, could you explain how tightening the lug nuts in the center of
>>the hub warps the rotor?

>
>Honda rotors are shaped like a straw hat. They have four holes that
>fit over the hub lugs and are held against the hub only by a couple of
>small phillips screws until the wheel is put on. Then the lug nuts
>force them hard against the hub.


The two phillips screws aren't much, but they are enough to hold the
flat inside surface of the rotor against the flat surface of the hub
as close as its going to get. I have a hard time believing that
additional torque on the lug nuts are going to cause the rotors to
warp after that.

It's pretty academic, because there are plenty of other good reasons
not to hammer on the lug nuts, not the least of which is that you need
to be able to remove them with the short lug wrench provided if you
ever have a flat.

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 31 Aug 2003, 01:18 pm
John Ings
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: I got new rotors, should I replace pads?

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:20:34 GMT, natman@gosfgiants.com (Natman)
wrote:


>I guess I can see how this might contribute to warpage, but the
>primary cause is that the rotors have grossly overheated. If you don't
>want them to warp, stop abusing them.


Thousands of drivers are abusing their brakes? I doubt it. I think
Honda brakes are a tad underdesigned. Now some of the frequent
replacement that seems necessary may be due to the use of cheapo
aftermarket rotors, and more due to the service people's cash cow-
unnecessary turning of rotors.

But before I was driving Hondas I used to drive Austin 1300s, a Brit
econobox that isn't half the car a Honda is, and I NEVER had to
replace a rotor on one.

>>Honda rotors are shaped like a straw hat. They have four holes that
>>fit over the hub lugs and are held against the hub only by a couple of
>>small phillips screws until the wheel is put on. Then the lug nuts
>>force them hard against the hub.

>
>The two phillips screws aren't much, but they are enough to hold the
>flat inside surface of the rotor against the flat surface of the hub
>as close as its going to get.


Want to put a dial guage in one and see?

> I have a hard time believing that
>additional torque on the lug nuts are going to cause the rotors to
>warp after that.


I don't. I've read too many explicit instructions about the order of
torquing headbolts on heads that are as near the block as they're
going to get.
>
>It's pretty academic, because there are plenty of other good reasons
>not to hammer on the lug nuts, not the least of which is that you need
>to be able to remove them with the short lug wrench provided if you
>ever have a flat.


The average service station employee cares about that?


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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 05 Sep 2003, 12:40 am
Warpdryv
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: I got new rotors, should I replace pads?

if you'd tried it, you would have seen the difference.

i got a lot more life out of my integra rotors by not cooking the pads to
the front rotors. even slowing down from 160km/h using only brakes will
heat the front rotors significantly - let them cool evenly by not keeping
the brakes on. using the parking brake to hold the car is not a new idea,
and has made a big difference on my 125K gsr (which is on original pads &
rotors!!!)

"Franz Bestuchev" <fbestuchev@n05p4m.userealsugar.com> wrote in message
news:bis0pe$gnt$1@peabody.colorado.edu...
> John Ings wrote:
> > On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:54:18 GMT, natman@gosfgiants.com (Natman)
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>>and the
> >>>>problem was gone! I didn't change the pads because the guy that

turned the
> >>>>rotors said the pads are fine...its just the rotors heat up and cool

to
> >>>>quickly and they warp.
> >>>
> >>>So don't cool them quickly. For instance if the brakes have been used
> >>>hard, don't hold the car at stoplight with your foot on the brake
> >>>pedal. Use the park brake.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Could you explain exactly how holding your car with the parking brake
> >>prevents rotor warp?

> >
> >
> > It doesn't absolutely eliminate rotor warp, it just eliminates one of
> > many causes. If the rotors are very hot and you're holding the pads
> > against them, they will cool unevenly.
> >
> > The back rotors, where the park brake is, supply only a small part of
> > the braking effort and don't get so hot.
> >
> >
> >>>But make sure some gomer doesn't put your lug nuts on with an impact
> >>>wrench. That's a cause of rotor warp.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Again, could you explain how tightening the lug nuts in the center of
> >>the hub warps the rotor?

> >
> >
> > Honda rotors are shaped like a straw hat. They have four holes that
> > fit over the hub lugs and are held against the hub only by a couple of
> > small phillips screws until the wheel is put on. Then the lug nuts
> > force them hard against the hub.
> >
> > If you watch the average service station mechanic or tire shop
> > employee put wheels on, they use an impact wrench set way too high,
> > and they tighten the nuts one after the other in a clockwise or
> > couter-clockwise order. They should be using one of those X shaped lug
> > wrenches or better still a torque wrench to hand tighten the lug nuts
> > in pairs, first one, then the one diagonally opposite.
> >
> > Some Honda models don't use those hat-shaped rotors, but their rotors
> > are a nightmare to change because you have to undo at least one ball
> > joint.
> >
> >
> >
> >

>
> It seems to me that you would have to have scorching hot rotors for this
> to make a difference. Even when you let off the pedal it's not as if the
> pads are moving significantly away from the rotor, certainly not
> anywhere near enough for there to be air flow equivalent to the exposed
> portion of the rotor. Spin the rotors with the car off the ground and
> you can hear the slight drag of the pads. This advice may be one of
> those things that is measureable in the lab but inconsequential in real
> life.
>
> You've also got to consider that if you follow this advice you will be
> sitting at a stop with no brake lights on, I'd rather have warped rotors
> than a crushed in rear end because the guy behind me didn't know I was
> at a full stop.
>



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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 06 Sep 2003, 01:13 pm
Gabriel Afana
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: I got new rotors, should I replace pads?


"Warpdryv" <warpdryv(nospam)@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:UkV5b.70571$kH3.6812@news02.bloor.is.net.cabl e.rogers.com...
> if you'd tried it, you would have seen the difference.
>
> i got a lot more life out of my integra rotors by not cooking the pads to
> the front rotors. even slowing down from 160km/h using only brakes will
> heat the front rotors significantly - let them cool evenly by not keeping
> the brakes on. using the parking brake to hold the car is not a new idea,
> and has made a big difference on my 125K gsr (which is on original pads &
> rotors!!!)
>
> "Franz Bestuchev" <fbestuchev@n05p4m.userealsugar.com> wrote in message
> news:bis0pe$gnt$1@peabody.colorado.edu...
> > John Ings wrote:
> > > On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:54:18 GMT, natman@gosfgiants.com (Natman)
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>>>and the
> > >>>>problem was gone! I didn't change the pads because the guy that

> turned the
> > >>>>rotors said the pads are fine...its just the rotors heat up and cool

> to
> > >>>>quickly and they warp.
> > >>>
> > >>>So don't cool them quickly. For instance if the brakes have been used
> > >>>hard, don't hold the car at stoplight with your foot on the brake
> > >>>pedal. Use the park brake.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>Could you explain exactly how holding your car with the parking brake
> > >>prevents rotor warp?
> > >
> > >
> > > It doesn't absolutely eliminate rotor warp, it just eliminates one of
> > > many causes. If the rotors are very hot and you're holding the pads
> > > against them, they will cool unevenly.
> > >
> > > The back rotors, where the park brake is, supply only a small part of
> > > the braking effort and don't get so hot.
> > >
> > >
> > >>>But make sure some gomer doesn't put your lug nuts on with an impact
> > >>>wrench. That's a cause of rotor warp.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>Again, could you explain how tightening the lug nuts in the center of
> > >>the hub warps the rotor?
> > >
> > >
> > > Honda rotors are shaped like a straw hat. They have four holes that
> > > fit over the hub lugs and are held against the hub only by a couple of
> > > small phillips screws until the wheel is put on. Then the lug nuts
> > > force them hard against the hub.
> > >
> > > If you watch the average service station mechanic or tire shop
> > > employee put wheels on, they use an impact wrench set way too high,
> > > and they tighten the nuts one after the other in a clockwise or
> > > couter-clockwise order. They should be using one of those X shaped lug
> > > wrenches or better still a torque wrench to hand tighten the lug nuts
> > > in pairs, first one, then the one diagonally opposite.
> > >
> > > Some Honda models don't use those hat-shaped rotors, but their rotors
> > > are a nightmare to change because you have to undo at least one ball
> > > joint.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >

> >
> > It seems to me that you would have to have scorching hot rotors for this
> > to make a difference. Even when you let off the pedal it's not as if the
> > pads are moving significantly away from the rotor, certainly not
> > anywhere near enough for there to be air flow equivalent to the exposed
> > portion of the rotor. Spin the rotors with the car off the ground and
> > you can hear the slight drag of the pads. This advice may be one of
> > those things that is measureable in the lab but inconsequential in real
> > life.
> >
> > You've also got to consider that if you follow this advice you will be
> > sitting at a stop with no brake lights on, I'd rather have warped rotors
> > than a crushed in rear end because the guy behind me didn't know I was
> > at a full stop.
> >

>
>




I just bought the brembo rotors and replaced them.......works perfect!
Thanks everybody for the help.



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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 09 Sep 2003, 01:03 pm
Natman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: I got new rotors, should I replace pads?

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:18:05 -0700, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org>
wrote:

>On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:20:34 GMT, natman@gosfgiants.com (Natman)
>wrote:
>
>
>>I guess I can see how this might contribute to warpage, but the
>>primary cause is that the rotors have grossly overheated. If you don't
>>want them to warp, stop abusing them.

>
>Thousands of drivers are abusing their brakes? I doubt it. I think
>Honda brakes are a tad underdesigned. Now some of the frequent
>replacement that seems necessary may be due to the use of cheapo
>aftermarket rotors, and more due to the service people's cash cow-
>unnecessary turning of rotors.

Honda may have turned out a model once that had brakes that were a tad
small, and/or a vendor made a batch that was defective, but not every
Honda product has this problem. There are hundreds of thousands of
Hondas out there whose owners always leave the brake on a stop without
warping the rotors.

>But before I was driving Hondas I used to drive Austin 1300s, a Brit
>econobox that isn't half the car a Honda is, and I NEVER had to
>replace a rotor on one.

My Legend has 165,000 miles and I've never had to replace one either.
This includes a good deal of driving in San Francsico hills, which is
about as tough an environment for brakes as there is. I even turned
them once, but only a few thou to remove some scratches. I agree with
you that if you've managed to warp one, that turning it true again
will probably require removing more metal than is wise.



>
>>>Honda rotors are shaped like a straw hat. They have four holes that
>>>fit over the hub lugs and are held against the hub only by a couple of
>>>small phillips screws until the wheel is put on. Then the lug nuts
>>>force them hard against the hub.

>>
>>The two phillips screws aren't much, but they are enough to hold the
>>flat inside surface of the rotor against the flat surface of the hub
>>as close as its going to get.

>
>Want to put a dial guage in one and see?

Sorry, I have better things to do, even though the idea is
interesting. I just have a very hard time believing that uneven lug
nut torque, which has to be transmitted via the wheel acting as a
washer, will generate enough force to distort a 2 inch tall steel
cylinder (the sides of the "hat") far enough to warp a 1/2+ inch steel
plate. (the rotor).
>
>> I have a hard time believing that
>>additional torque on the lug nuts are going to cause the rotors to
>>warp after that.

>
>I don't. I've read too many explicit instructions about the order of
>torquing headbolts on heads that are as near the block as they're
>going to get.

Apparently.

Lets list the differences between a cylinder head and a brake rotor:

A cylinder head is a long aluminum casting, full of holes. The bolts
tighten on a point. Rather than being metal to metal, it rests on a
compressible gasket.

A rotor is steel. The forces applied to the bolts are spread out by
the wheel. It has a stiff cylinder shape between the bolts and the
disc. It rests between the hub and wheel with no compressible surfaces
in between.

Apples and oranges.


>>It's pretty academic, because there are plenty of other good reasons
>>not to hammer on the lug nuts, not the least of which is that you need
>>to be able to remove them with the short lug wrench provided if you
>>ever have a flat.

>
>The average service station employee cares about that?

You missed my point. I'm trying to agree with you that hammering on
the lug nuts is NOT a good idea. I think applying even torque in a
criss cross pattern IS a good idea. I just think that possible rotor
warpage is a bit lower on the list of reasons.
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