Honda Car Forum

I've been having starting problems with a 1989 Legend with 180K miles on it.
About six months ago, it began to fail to start. It would crank fine, but
no ignition. I would keep trying and eventually it would start. This was
very infrequent, so I ignored it for a while. Then it began to get a little
more frequent, still maybe once or twice a week. I was never able to
correlate anything I did with what actually got the car to start. The
battery's fine. It has plenty of power when it cranks. The starter is
relatively new; put it on at about 140K. I recently did the plugs, wires,
rotor, and distributor cap. When I did this, the problem seemed (may be my
imagination) to go away for about a month. However, in the past month, it's
gotten much worse. It's odd in that the car always starts in the morning.
It works on weekends when I run errands. It's on work days when I attempt
to go home that it won't start. Now it's to the point where this happens
1/3 to 1/2 the time, but only in the afternoons, after I've driven it to
work and it's been sitting in the parking lot all day.

I've been poking around newsgroup archives and the possibilities I have come
up with are the main relay assembly and either of the O2 sensors. Anyone
have ideas?

Thanks,
JK

Main relays are pretty common on those. I have two 89 Legends, and both
have had main relays fail. Usually you can "hear" if that the problem.
When you turn the key on, your check engine light comes on, and the main
relay will click when the light goes off. If you don't hear the click when
the light goes off, it is usually the main relay. There are many more
conclusive tests... but that's something quick and easy to look for.

"JK" <JohnKellerman@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:247b7174.0307221711.2451caf4@posting.google.c om...
> I've been having starting problems with a 1989 Legend with 180K miles on
it.
> About six months ago, it began to fail to start. It would crank fine, but
> no ignition. I would keep trying and eventually it would start. This was
> very infrequent, so I ignored it for a while. Then it began to get a
little
> more frequent, still maybe once or twice a week. I was never able to
> correlate anything I did with what actually got the car to start. The
> battery's fine. It has plenty of power when it cranks. The starter is
> relatively new; put it on at about 140K. I recently did the plugs, wires,
> rotor, and distributor cap. When I did this, the problem seemed (may be
my
> imagination) to go away for about a month. However, in the past month,
it's
> gotten much worse. It's odd in that the car always starts in the morning.
> It works on weekends when I run errands. It's on work days when I attempt
> to go home that it won't start. Now it's to the point where this happens
> 1/3 to 1/2 the time, but only in the afternoons, after I've driven it to
> work and it's been sitting in the parking lot all day.
>
> I've been poking around newsgroup archives and the possibilities I have
come
> up with are the main relay assembly and either of the O2 sensors. Anyone
> have ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> JK

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 21:21:21 -0500, "Jafir Elkurd"
<jafir@nospam.no.spam.hotpop.com> wrote:

>Main relays are pretty common on those. I have two 89 Legends, and both
>have had main relays fail. Usually you can "hear" if that the problem.
>When you turn the key on, your check engine light comes on, and the main
>relay will click when the light goes off. If you don't hear the click when
>the light goes off, it is usually the main relay. There are many more
>conclusive tests... but that's something quick and easy to look for.

That was my guess as well - same thing happened on my '87 last
summer. I had been having a similar problem recently, but it turned
out (I hope) to be an battery connector that had broke and was not
making contact all the time. I also replaced the fuel filter on a
whim after recalling it was the gremlin causing a similar problem with
a a Jaguar we had. I'm still getting a code on the EGR valve, which
could also be contributing to the problem, but too early to know since
I just replaced the connectors and fuel filter today.

Coincidently enough, last night leaving work, it failed to start
again. Took the bus home. Got a ride to work this morning and it
started right up. I don't believe it's a battery connection because
the starter cranks just fine, the engine simply doesn't catch. I
don't think it's the fuel filter; seems if it was I would also have
problems while the car was running, which I'm not. Anyway, got a new
main relay and replaced it tonight; took a while to find the darn
thing. Should know in a few days if this fixed it. Thanks for your
help.

JK

Bàidh Stidean <kristopher@SPAM.nine-eye.net> wrote in message news:<g01uhv0a0g0mmhc893rt3th0oj72l8fasm@4ax.com>. ..
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:24:23 -0500, "Jafir Elkurd"
> <jafir@nospam.no.spam.hotpop.com> wrote:
>
> >I don't recall seeing it on the 86 and 87 Legend, but on the 86 and 87
> >Accords, the code for EGR is most commonly the EGR "chamber" in the
> >emissions box. It's a little white vacuum ported cylinder that has an
> >orifice that gets plugged or restricted. I don't know if they fail on the
> >older legends (or if they are even there.... I loaned out my 87 legend sedan
> >book).
>
> It's probably a problem I'll just let my mechanic tackle. I was
> turned on to a great guy by the person I bought the car from, so if
> anyone's looking for a Honda or Acura mechanic in the Oklahoma City
> metro, try Mike's Place on South Shields - reliable, honest, and
> undercuts the dealer like mad. Only cost me $25 to replace that relay
> - I can't get the dealer to look at my car for less than $50, let
> alone do anything to it.

"JK" <JohnKellerman@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:247b7174.0307231724.5029dbab@posting.google.c om...
> Coincidently enough, last night leaving work, it failed to start
> again. Took the bus home. Got a ride to work this morning and it
> started right up. I don't believe it's a battery connection because
> the starter cranks just fine, the engine simply doesn't catch. I
> don't think it's the fuel filter; seems if it was I would also have
> problems while the car was running, which I'm not. Anyway, got a new
> main relay and replaced it tonight; took a while to find the darn
> thing. Should know in a few days if this fixed it. Thanks for your
> help.
>
> JK
>
> Bàidh Stidean <kristopher@SPAM.nine-eye.net> wrote in message
news:<g01uhv0a0g0mmhc893rt3th0oj72l8fasm@4ax.com>. ..
> > On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:24:23 -0500, "Jafir Elkurd"
> > <jafir@nospam.no.spam.hotpop.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I don't recall seeing it on the 86 and 87 Legend, but on the 86 and 87
> > >Accords, the code for EGR is most commonly the EGR "chamber" in the
> > >emissions box. It's a little white vacuum ported cylinder that has an
> > >orifice that gets plugged or restricted. I don't know if they fail on
the
> > >older legends (or if they are even there.... I loaned out my 87 legend
sedan
> > >book).
> >
> > It's probably a problem I'll just let my mechanic tackle. I was
> > turned on to a great guy by the person I bought the car from, so if
> > anyone's looking for a Honda or Acura mechanic in the Oklahoma City
> > metro, try Mike's Place on South Shields - reliable, honest, and
> > undercuts the dealer like mad. Only cost me $25 to replace that relay
> > - I can't get the dealer to look at my car for less than $50, let
> > alone do anything to it.

My car has decided to not start around noon every day. I drive the car as a
salesman, and it just cranks and doesn't catch with no warning. I wait a
minute or two and it starts.

doug

John, I had the same problem with my 90 Legend. It would start
intermittently and seemed to be worse on the hottest days (great).

It was the main relay under the dash. The replacement was covered in
the Haynes repair manual readily availabe. You can tackle this
yourself, it takes about 60-180 mins depending on how well your torso
bends. It took me, well, more time, beer breaks, tantrums, finding
tools after hurling them, etc.

You can search google for "hot-start Accord failure" or similar.

On 30 Jul 2003 05:42:10 -0700, JohnKellerman@nc.rr.com (JK) wrote:

>As it turns out, this did not fix the problem. I was poking around
>the Car Talk bulliten board and found a problem common to Honda
>Accords of that time, problem with a relay inside the car, under the
>dash, an EFI relay? This would be consistent with the symptoms...
>only does not start when I park in the hot sun and then the interior
>of the car heats up. Would there be a similar relay in an 89 Legend
>that might be failing?
>
>Parking in the shade now...
>
>JK
>
>JohnKellerman@nc.rr.com (JK) wrote in message news:<247b7174.0307231724.5029dbab@posting.google. com>...
>> Coincidently enough, last night leaving work, it failed to start
>> again. Took the bus home. Got a ride to work this morning and it
>> started right up. I don't believe it's a battery connection because
>> the starter cranks just fine, the engine simply doesn't catch. I
>> don't think it's the fuel filter; seems if it was I would also have
>> problems while the car was running, which I'm not. Anyway, got a new
>> main relay and replaced it tonight; took a while to find the darn
>> thing. Should know in a few days if this fixed it. Thanks for your
>> help.
>>
>> JK
>>
>> Bàidh Stidean <kristopher@SPAM.nine-eye.net> wrote in message news:<g01uhv0a0g0mmhc893rt3th0oj72l8fasm@4ax.com>. ..
>> > On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:24:23 -0500, "Jafir Elkurd"
>> > <jafir@nospam.no.spam.hotpop.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >I don't recall seeing it on the 86 and 87 Legend, but on the 86 and 87
>> > >Accords, the code for EGR is most commonly the EGR "chamber" in the
>> > >emissions box. It's a little white vacuum ported cylinder that has an
>> > >orifice that gets plugged or restricted. I don't know if they fail on the
>> > >older legends (or if they are even there.... I loaned out my 87 legend sedan
>> > >book).
>> >
>> > It's probably a problem I'll just let my mechanic tackle. I was
>> > turned on to a great guy by the person I bought the car from, so if
>> > anyone's looking for a Honda or Acura mechanic in the Oklahoma City
>> > metro, try Mike's Place on South Shields - reliable, honest, and
>> > undercuts the dealer like mad. Only cost me $25 to replace that relay
>> > - I can't get the dealer to look at my car for less than $50, let
>> > alone do anything to it.

OK, I feel sorry for you guys. There's no need to remove the relay itself -
it is a ton of trouble. Here's what to do if you have solder iron and feel
cheap. Instead of removing the main relay, take a small flat knife and
remove the body of the relay from the "cup". It'll just fall down. Resolder
all the joints with fresh solder and a 30W iron. Pop back in and plug in
connector. You're ready to go. Too much trouble, Buy a new main relay undo
the connector, plug it in tuck it back in there. You're good to go again.

BTW the solder iron produces a better relay than a new one! The solder joint
on the factory relay is the weak point.
"Doug Holtz" <dholtz@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:_i_Va.48940$o27.1073822@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Guys;
>
> Thanks for this. It is funny that only during the hottest part of the day
> the sucker won't start. I'll look for the part and test procedure in my
> manual.
>
> Doug
>
> "Old Mariner" <oldmariner@*nospam*yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news97giv4a376idmt18rrvegctis6i7uvgic@4ax.com...
> > John, I had the same problem with my 90 Legend. It would start
> > intermittently and seemed to be worse on the hottest days (great).
> >
> > It was the main relay under the dash. The replacement was covered in
> > the Haynes repair manual readily availabe. You can tackle this
> > yourself, it takes about 60-180 mins depending on how well your torso
> > bends. It took me, well, more time, beer breaks, tantrums, finding
> > tools after hurling them, etc.
> >
> > You can search google for "hot-start Accord failure" or similar.
> >
> > On 30 Jul 2003 05:42:10 -0700, JohnKellerman@nc.rr.com (JK) wrote:
> >
> > >As it turns out, this did not fix the problem. I was poking around
> > >the Car Talk bulliten board and found a problem common to Honda
> > >Accords of that time, problem with a relay inside the car, under the
> > >dash, an EFI relay? This would be consistent with the symptoms...
> > >only does not start when I park in the hot sun and then the interior
> > >of the car heats up. Would there be a similar relay in an 89 Legend
> > >that might be failing?
> > >
> > >Parking in the shade now...
> > >
> > >JK
> > >
> > >JohnKellerman@nc.rr.com (JK) wrote in message
> news:<247b7174.0307231724.5029dbab@posting.google. com>...
> > >> Coincidently enough, last night leaving work, it failed to start
> > >> again. Took the bus home. Got a ride to work this morning and it
> > >> started right up. I don't believe it's a battery connection because
> > >> the starter cranks just fine, the engine simply doesn't catch. I
> > >> don't think it's the fuel filter; seems if it was I would also have
> > >> problems while the car was running, which I'm not. Anyway, got a new
> > >> main relay and replaced it tonight; took a while to find the darn
> > >> thing. Should know in a few days if this fixed it. Thanks for your
> > >> help.
> > >>
> > >> JK
> > >>
> > >> Bàidh Stidean <kristopher@SPAM.nine-eye.net> wrote in message
> news:<g01uhv0a0g0mmhc893rt3th0oj72l8fasm@4ax.com>. ..
> > >> > On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 07:24:23 -0500, "Jafir Elkurd"
> > >> > <jafir@nospam.no.spam.hotpop.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > >I don't recall seeing it on the 86 and 87 Legend, but on the 86
and
> 87
> > >> > >Accords, the code for EGR is most commonly the EGR "chamber" in
the
> > >> > >emissions box. It's a little white vacuum ported cylinder that
has
> an
> > >> > >orifice that gets plugged or restricted. I don't know if they
fail
> on the
> > >> > >older legends (or if they are even there.... I loaned out my 87
> legend sedan
> > >> > >book).
> > >> >
> > >> > It's probably a problem I'll just let my mechanic tackle. I was
> > >> > turned on to a great guy by the person I bought the car from, so if
> > >> > anyone's looking for a Honda or Acura mechanic in the Oklahoma City
> > >> > metro, try Mike's Place on South Shields - reliable, honest, and
> > >> > undercuts the dealer like mad. Only cost me $25 to replace that
> relay
> > >> > - I can't get the dealer to look at my car for less than $50, let
> > >> > alone do anything to it.
> >
>
>

Old Mariner <oldmariner@*nospam*yahoo.com> wrote in
news97giv4a376idmt18rrvegctis6i7uvgic@4ax.com:

> John, I had the same problem with my 90 Legend. It would start
> intermittently and seemed to be worse on the hottest days (great).
>
> It was the main relay under the dash. The replacement was covered in
> the Haynes repair manual readily availabe. You can tackle this
> yourself, it takes about 60-180 mins depending on how well your torso
> bends. It took me, well, more time, beer breaks, tantrums, finding
> tools after hurling them, etc.
>
> You can search google for "hot-start Accord failure" or similar.

what's really interesting is that you could have resoldered the relay PCB
pads and saved yourself $50.

--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove null to contact me

Interesting site, soldering a relay.

I pulled my radiator fan control unit and took it apart. I have an
overheating problem all of a sudden. Pulled it apart and saw no problems
with solder like the web site shows, so I sprung for a new control unit.
$150.17 tax included. I hope the car doesn't overheat anymore.

Doug

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@nullkua.net> wrote in message
news:Xns93C8EC080FC9Ajyanikkuanet@204.117.192.21.. .
> "Doug Holtz" <dholtz@wi.rr.com> wrote in
> news:_i_Va.48940$o27.1073822@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com:
>
> > Guys;
> >
> > Thanks for this. It is funny that only during the hottest part of the
> > day the sucker won't start. I'll look for the part and test procedure
> > in my manual.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > "Old Mariner" <oldmariner@*nospam*yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news97giv4a376idmt18rrvegctis6i7uvgic@4ax.com...
> >> John, I had the same problem with my 90 Legend. It would start
> >> intermittently and seemed to be worse on the hottest days (great).
> >>
> >> It was the main relay under the dash. The replacement was covered in
> >> the Haynes repair manual readily availabe. You can tackle this
> >> yourself, it takes about 60-180 mins depending on how well your torso
> >> bends. It took me, well, more time, beer breaks, tantrums, finding
> >> tools after hurling them, etc.
>
> try this,save yourself some money,and a trip to the dealer for a new
relay;
> http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/elec...main-relay.htm
>
> --
> Jim Yanik,NRA member
> remove null to contact me

"Doug Holtz" <dholtz@wi.rr.com> wrote in
news:mEEWa.56188$o27.1216690@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com:

> Interesting site, soldering a relay.
>
> I pulled my radiator fan control unit and took it apart. I have an
> overheating problem all of a sudden. Pulled it apart and saw no problems
> with solder like the web site shows, so I sprung for a new control unit.
> $150.17 tax included. I hope the car doesn't overheat anymore.
>
> Doug
>

The 'solder old relay' advice does not confer to other parts.
Besides,cooling fans are often controlled by a thermostatic switch mounted
in/on the radiator.Either the switch goes bad,or the fan motor.I don't
believe a new thermo switch costs $150.






--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove null to contact me