Honda Car Forum

Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>
> "Matthew Hunt" <mph@wopr.caltech.edu> wrote in message
> news:beffmc$h1f$1@naig.caltech.edu...
> > In article <N8HOa.99613$2ay.39949@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.r ogers.com>,
> > Stephen Bigelow <sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Lighter oil flows slightly better during "cold*" starts, too.
> >
> > 5W-20 and 5W-30 will have similar viscosities in cold starts, since
> > they are both 5W.
>
> <Sarcasm>
> You're absolutely correct, of course, since all cold starts happen at 0F.
> <End sarcasm>
>
> You trimmed off the last, important line of my post, "*Even at 30C, it's
> still a cold start to the oil."
> Which flows better at 30C, 5W-20, or 5W-30?


If the ambient temperature is 30°C, it ain't gonna amount to a hill of beans.


--
Regards,

JT (Residing in Austin, Texas)

Just Tooling Down The Internet Superhighway With my G4.......

Matthew Hunt wrote:
>
> In article <mDHOa.99624$2ay.32218@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.r ogers.com>,
> Stephen Bigelow <sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> > You trimmed off the last, important line of my post, "*Even at 30C, it's
> > still a cold start to the oil."
> > Which flows better at 30C, 5W-20, or 5W-30?
>
> The discussion is basically "what motivated Honda to spec 5W-20." If
> the motivation were startup wear, the appropriate action would be to
> spec a 0W oil, like the 0W-20 they spec for the Insight or a 0W-30.
> Since they instead changed the 100 C spec, from 30 to 20 weight, we can
> conclude that their motivation has more to do with operating temperature
> than startup.



The recommendation of "thin" oils is almost always to achieve better gas
mileage and of course there are trade offs...


--
Regards,

JT (Residing in Austin, Texas)

Just Tooling Down The Internet Superhighway With my G4.......

>Xavier wrote:
>>
>> "Philip®" <chipstate@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:4QBOa.89628$Io.7803920@newsread2.prod.itd.ear thlink.net...
>>>
>>> To be quite blunt about it ... from what do you know about the real
>>> world difference between 5w-20 vs. 5w-30 and why the factory
>>> recommendation in the first place?
> From acura-cl.com it seems the 2001, maybe 2002 CL stated 5W30 was
> okay to use (per the manual) then the standard changed to 5W20 to
> better meet CAFE standards. So I would guess it was to get that
> .008% better gas mileage?

You have it right. In the short term, the ultra thin oil is for CAFE
certification. It would be interesting if CAFE fuel certs were
performed with 3,000 hrs on the sample engine. Wanna bet these water
thin oils would be history?
--�

Philip

"If a long train of abuses, prevarications, and artifices, all tending
the same way, make the design visible to the people . tis not to be
wondered that they should then rouse themselves."
- John Locke (1632-1704)

>Matthew Hunt wrote:
> In article
> <N8HOa.99613$2ay.39949@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.r ogers.com>, Stephen
> Bigelow <sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote:
>
>> Lighter oil flows slightly better during "cold*" starts, too.
>
> 5W-20 and 5W-30 will have similar viscosities in cold starts, since
> they are both 5W.

SO MANY non thinkers miss that fact.
--

Philip

"If a long train of abuses, prevarications, and artifices, all tending
the same way, make the design visible to the people . tis not to be
wondered that they should then rouse themselves."
- John Locke (1632-1704)

>Stephen Bigelow wrote:
> "Matthew Hunt" <mph@wopr.caltech.edu> wrote in message
> news:beffmc$h1f$1@naig.caltech.edu...
>> In article
>> <N8HOa.99613$2ay.39949@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.r ogers.com>,
>> Stephen Bigelow <sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Lighter oil flows slightly better during "cold*" starts, too.
>>
>> 5W-20 and 5W-30 will have similar viscosities in cold starts, since
>> they are both 5W.
>
> <Sarcasm>
> You're absolutely correct, of course, since all cold starts happen at
> 0F. <End sarcasm>
>
> You trimmed off the last, important line of my post, "*Even at 30C,
> it's still a cold start to the oil."
> Which flows better at 30C, 5W-20, or 5W-30?

No appreciable difference since the high end weight is measured at
215ºF. There is very very little real world difference between the two
oils throughout the anticipated operating range. 5w-20 is about CAFE
..... period.
--

Philip

"If a long train of abuses, prevarications, and artifices, all tending
the same way, make the design visible to the people . tis not to be
wondered that they should then rouse themselves."
- John Locke (1632-1704)

>Matthew Hunt wrote:
> In article
> <mDHOa.99624$2ay.32218@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.r ogers.com>, Stephen
> Bigelow <sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote:
>
>> You trimmed off the last, important line of my post, "*Even at 30C,
>> it's still a cold start to the oil."
>> Which flows better at 30C, 5W-20, or 5W-30?
>
> The discussion is basically "what motivated Honda to spec 5W-20." If
> the motivation were startup wear, the appropriate action would be to
> spec a 0W oil, like the 0W-20 they spec for the Insight or a 0W-30.
> Since they instead changed the 100 C spec, from 30 to 20 weight, we
> can conclude that their motivation has more to do with operating
> temperature than startup.

Curious... WHY is this cross posted to a Toyota forum?
--

Philip

"If a long train of abuses, prevarications, and artifices, all tending
the same way, make the design visible to the people . tis not to be
wondered that they should then rouse themselves."
- John Locke (1632-1704)

>JETman wrote:
> Matthew Hunt wrote:
>>
>> In article
>> <mDHOa.99624$2ay.32218@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.r ogers.com>,
>> Stephen Bigelow <sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You trimmed off the last, important line of my post, "*Even at 30C,
>>> it's still a cold start to the oil."
>>> Which flows better at 30C, 5W-20, or 5W-30?
>>
>> The discussion is basically "what motivated Honda to spec 5W-20." If
>> the motivation were startup wear, the appropriate action would be to
>> spec a 0W oil, like the 0W-20 they spec for the Insight or a 0W-30.
>> Since they instead changed the 100 C spec, from 30 to 20 weight, we
>> can conclude that their motivation has more to do with operating
>> temperature than startup.
>
>
>
> The recommendation of "thin" oils is almost always to achieve better
> gas mileage and of course there are trade offs...

There ya Go. I'm not interested in that "particular" trade off. My
last car was a 1990 Geo Prizm that I bought new ... and put 285,000
miles on. Mobil1 oil all the way. The motor was in very good condition
when I sold it and the new owner just rolled it past 300,000.
--

Philip

"If a long train of abuses, prevarications, and artifices, all tending
the same way, make the design visible to the people . tis not to be
wondered that they should then rouse themselves."
- John Locke (1632-1704)

"Philip®" <chipstate@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:EDJOa.35213$C83.2935549@newsread1.prod.itd.ea rthlink.net...
> >Stephen Bigelow wrote:
> > "Matthew Hunt" <mph@wopr.caltech.edu> wrote in message
> > news:beffmc$h1f$1@naig.caltech.edu...
> >> In article
> >> <N8HOa.99613$2ay.39949@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.r ogers.com>,
> >> Stephen Bigelow <sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Lighter oil flows slightly better during "cold*" starts, too.
> >>
> >> 5W-20 and 5W-30 will have similar viscosities in cold starts, since
> >> they are both 5W.
> >
> > <Sarcasm>
> > You're absolutely correct, of course, since all cold starts happen at
> > 0F. <End sarcasm>
> >
> > You trimmed off the last, important line of my post, "*Even at 30C,
> > it's still a cold start to the oil."
> > Which flows better at 30C, 5W-20, or 5W-30?
>
> No appreciable difference since the high end weight is measured at
> 215ºF.

Uh-huh.
I'm aware of the measuring temps, which is why I added the proviso of the
30C cold start temp.


There is very very little real world difference between the two
> oils throughout the anticipated operating range. 5w-20 is about CAFE
> .... period.

Cool.

"Philip®" <chipstate@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:yDJOa.35211$C83.2935549@newsread1.prod.itd.ea rthlink.net...
> >Matthew Hunt wrote:
> > In article
> > <N8HOa.99613$2ay.39949@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.r ogers.com>, Stephen
> > Bigelow <sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Lighter oil flows slightly better during "cold*" starts, too.
> >
> > 5W-20 and 5W-30 will have similar viscosities in cold starts, since
> > they are both 5W.
>
> SO MANY non thinkers miss that fact.

5W is NOT a cold start viscosity for me today.
If it is for you, you must live at the South Pole.


Is the temp/viscosity curve for M1 5W-XX linear?

"Stephen Bigelow" <sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:mDHOa.99624$2ay.32218@news01.bloor.is.net.cab le.rogers.com...
>
> "Matthew Hunt" <mph@wopr.caltech.edu> wrote in message
> news:beffmc$h1f$1@naig.caltech.edu...
> > In article <N8HOa.99613$2ay.39949@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.r ogers.com>,
> > Stephen Bigelow <sbigelowXLS@rogers.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Lighter oil flows slightly better during "cold*" starts, too.
> >
> > 5W-20 and 5W-30 will have similar viscosities in cold starts, since
> > they are both 5W.
>
> <Sarcasm>
> You're absolutely correct, of course, since all cold starts happen at 0F.
> <End sarcasm>
>
> You trimmed off the last, important line of my post, "*Even at 30C, it's
> still a cold start to the oil."
> Which flows better at 30C, 5W-20, or 5W-30?

SAE 0. That doesn't mean that you want to actually use it at high
temperatures!

The viscosity determines how quickly the oil enters and leaves the bearings.
If the exit clearances are small, then a higher viscosity oil will maintain
a thicker oil film. The tradeoff is greater fluid friction. Of course,
there is a limit to how thick you want to go in terms of cold start and oil
pump performance.

It is interesting to note that there are different oils specified for
different markets. I really don't see enough environmental differences
between Australia and the US to justify lower viscosity oil for the US. It
seems that it has more to do with CAFE than with engine protection.

Nobody ever blew an engine by using SAE30 oil in place of SAE20!

George