On 29 Jul 2003 19:32:15 -0700, brorjace@hotmail.com (Bror Jace) wrote:

>fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com (George Macdonald) wrote in message news:<3f25fbe5.11848392@news.tellurian.com>...
>
>If solvency WAS an issue, it
>> >surely would have reared its ugly head in my car as I ran it much,
>> >much longer.
>>
>> I didn't say it was solvency. Even if it was then I'd indict RedLine
>> before Honda on the subject of testing and warnings... given your later
>> remarks about Honda MTF.
>
>I know. That bit was in response to some things Mista Bone had posted
>earlier. Just my thoughts that it *couldn't* be a solvency problem ...
>but not necessarily some other problem.

Whatever it is, it *is* extreme!

>> >I've never tried (Honda MTF). A virgin oil analysis on it shows it to be
>> >a fairly ordinary-looking fluid. No special anti-wear (moly,
>> >borate-esters, etc ...) just a good dose of what looks like ZDDP ...
>> >in quantities motor oils used to have the stuff.
>>
>> I'm not sure how a lubricant/fluid arrives at being characterized as
>> "ordinary-looking"... nor what the "analysis" actually examined.
>
>Here's a link:
>
>http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=000100#000000
>
>There's also a used sample of this stuff tested on that site:
>
>http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=000562#000000

0% water seems awfully suspicious to me in that UOA. Other than that the
stuff works.

>> Borate-esters would appear to be something I would not expect to find in
>> Honda MTF, given that they are currently being test marketed by the
>> additive mfrs - maybe something I'd want nothing to do with until that
>> testing is done.
>
>Well, they're quickly going mainstream ... especially in gear oils,
>oils for motorcycles which do not tolerate moly and even many motor
>oils like Pennzoil, Chevron Supreme, Mobil 1 SuperSyn, etc ... Both
>MTL and I believe MT-90 have borate esters in them.

Seems a bit early to be going mainstream to me - Vanderbilt still shows it
in test marketing... to lube mfrs. Given the variation in bearing
materials between various auto mfrs' engines I'd expect a more cautious
approach by the lube mfrs. So has Mobil1 switched from MoDTC to
borate-ester.... already?... or is it used as an additional supplement?
All this chopping and changing makes me dizzy... and wary.

>Obviously ZDDP works well and has for years and of
>> course, there's no catalytic converter in a gear box - in fact if ZDDP had
>> not been blacklisted by the auto mfrs we'd probably still be using it in
>> our engines and MoDTC would be an obscure chemical.
>
>True, but MoDTC is actually working pretty well as a barrier anti-wear
>... producing some incredibly low wear numbers in UOAs.

Let's hope there are no surprises down the road. Vanderbilt still warns
about the diesels and copper "corrosion".

>> >What I like most about the Red Line fluids is their cold-shift
>> >capabilities. Dead-of-winter graunch is greatly eliminated.
>
>> Yes with Honda MTF, you *do* have to shift gently in low temps - not for
>> long though - but I expect that Honda is quite sure that it is not
>> incompatible with the metallurgy of their gearbox components.
>
>** Yeah, Plasticurgy. >;^) I guess it's a trade off. In MolaKule's
>Nissan truck transmission wear seemed to be greatly improved by
>switching from the Amsoil he was using to one of the Red Line
>synchromesh fluids. There are UOAs of his tranny oil on the same site
>as well. Don't think he ever tried MTF in his Nissan.

In the case of the cage, I assumed that it was plastic - I guess from what
we could see in the .JPG, it didn't look like metal. My point was though,
that metallurgy *is* important in the choice of lube for a gearbox. As an
example, AFAIK there are still mfrs using API EP gear oils (VW ?) and they
would not work in any situation where there was any red metal. Before
switching to some new, latest, whiz-bang additive, I'd want to be sure that
there are no such similar incompatibilities - IOW unless I heard from
Honda, Nissan, Toyota et.al. that "yes we have tested this and it is
approved", I'd tend to stick with what I know has worked.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??