On 2009-08-28, Ashton Crusher <demi@moore.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 03:05:58 +0000 (UTC), Brent
><tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2009-08-28, Ashton Crusher <demi@moore.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 27 Aug 2009 15:13:23 +0000 (UTC), Brent
>>><tetraethylleadREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2009-08-27, Dave <noway1@nohow2.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You make some good points. The problem I have with a government run health
>>>>> care system is...if it comes to that, there will be no individual choice
>>>>> left. Right now, the private insurance companies are terrible. But they
>>>>> are held (slightly) in check by the fact that there are more than one of
>>>>> them. That is, they have to "compete", at least to a certain degree. Once
>>>>> the government takes over, there is no need to "compete", and those in
>>>>> charge of the new government run cluster-**** can be as evil as they want
>>>>> to, as they don't answer to anybody anymore. While it's hard to imagine
>>>>> that healthcare could be "worse" in the United States, it is GUARANTEED to
>>>>> get worse (and a LOT worse) if the government gets involved at all. -Dave
>>>>>
>>>>The present problems are government created. They are in the tax code,
>>>>regulation, medicare,insurance laws, etc and so on. The solution is
>>>>less government interference, not more. If we get more, we might get a
>>>>government system where by government gets a large degree of control
>>>>over our lives. After all, since the government 'pays' for the
>>>>healthcare it will then use that excuse to micromanage every decision we
>>>>make, every risk we take. The more likely result will be that certain
>>>>companies will make great profits while the rest get shut out. The
>>>>government will act to lock in high prices for those who have influence.
>>>>In essence form legalized cartels. From there government will then find
>>>>a way to get the power to micromanage everyone somehow to get the best
>>>>of both.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the present problem has little to do with gvt. It has
>>> everything to do with our health care system being third party pays.
>>
>>Those two statements don't go together. The reason there is a third
>>party system is because of the US federal tax code. In WW2 the federal
>>government capped wages but allowed health insurance benefits and
>>employers and employees got tax benefits from offering and taking them.
>>That's how today's system started. So, yes, it has everything to do with
>>the government.
>>
>
> That's just rationalizing to make the gvt the bogeyman.

No. It's how we ended up with 'health insurance' that covered even the
basics being employer provided.

> Even allowing
> that it started that way, when it started it was not the money pit it
> now is. The CURRENT problem is not due to gvt, it is due to it being
> third party pays.

The government, through medicare and other programs controls an enormous
percentage of the healthcare market. Somehwhere around 50% give or take
a little. I've heard 47-51%.

>>Do you really think 'free' healthcare paid by the government with money
>>it takes from other people will convince people to watch their bills?

> No. Why would anyone think that.

Then costs will not be controlled. It will have the same problem that
you say is today's problem.

>>HA! the only way government can keep costs down is to use either
>>monopoly in health care or their monopoly on the legal use of violence
>>to deny care where today's insurance can't do it because of law,
>>lawsuit, or market pressure.

> Gvt can keep costs down by creating a structure that doesn't have 15%
> of the premiums going to overhead and admin and another 5 to 15% going
> to profits. Other countries have gotten rid of the profit part and
> reduced teh overhead to around 5%. Gvt could also limit lawsuits but
> that's only 1.5% of costs so it's really not a big deal.

LOL. What in the US federal government runs as lean as 15% overhead?
Your 'successful' cash for clunkers program seems to be running around
33% overhead.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/...ita-doan-cash/